From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: =?utf-8?Q?Gerd_M=C3=B6llmann?= Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: No to CL packages Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2022 06:40:08 +0200 Message-ID: References: <87k04t6vv3.fsf@gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="34403"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Cc: relekarpayas@gmail.com, emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Richard Stallman Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Mon Oct 24 07:44:17 2022 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1omqG0-0008kN-CE for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Mon, 24 Oct 2022 07:44:16 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1ompG5-0003JW-KY; Mon, 24 Oct 2022 00:40:17 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1ompG3-0003Gr-31 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 24 Oct 2022 00:40:15 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-ed1-x534.google.com ([2a00:1450:4864:20::534]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1ompG1-0006im-DT; Mon, 24 Oct 2022 00:40:14 -0400 Original-Received: by mail-ed1-x534.google.com with SMTP id r14so26861369edc.7; Sun, 23 Oct 2022 21:40:11 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:user-agent:message-id:date:references:in-reply-to :subject:cc:to:from:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=wffja1tKRyZVKrIolSA3DmIzds1Xp8q7C88u3ms6xmU=; b=oLuwvPWy0Llexa12hUXz5vDRyee7uuwC2xGRKQ8ksnC2Wb8iK71EhDyFPn9QKqGzUg XpM/FHK9nCXJ06ReM4gvxfBYgUlmp01mnMTWwBoQfdhOu/sElymDTnjW/BIxnb2g7XMJ B/TvAOn2qWBonTGxtx/Nf0O05ZR6+vhIJSjhxfg7RLrxK3SfiDoT4Ghef6DYrwsJKFOk vNTcbRpqtOZM4YEwdes8cninAux0yogWa542Pm+x6RV2XTZxVYZ+VcQAHVS8P/A9PFDG PYzo1ra8GnByjEelbDY1ILvDP86j3BaQV88P7PU5vSruEAs02TGkyzZ/eXxbkSX0J9En TdIw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=mime-version:user-agent:message-id:date:references:in-reply-to :subject:cc:to:from:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date :message-id:reply-to; bh=wffja1tKRyZVKrIolSA3DmIzds1Xp8q7C88u3ms6xmU=; b=7zv7QWockQ0kEK9xPMRrpAli3OJNt1p4FMnvBY4O0W1gAGkq9GwjOqUBGDw+D7CzTB tEajf9h4c4s/m3wdZRhLC0et9Cav+M5izW4TW6B5cAnEHaOcR3a5BvR8s/LE06gtQFAW kv0HhPTw+qfuATUi4/QMlhBTziss9A0GKvfRotb/BaNh0V/5GvgqNmlBDbLKvPJepb8r IRc6M0cSGmKx8JCj2ehoiEiQi2zPMPPPWDrCq097QH/xgr8kn5fHtwRR32TWfImoN8t9 BfRoMxojkAuv+21MoFJ2W5MO5E03k3s2n6EWmDTIjH2LW5ARevruYaMswxgMbmHx/2ma LlNQ== X-Gm-Message-State: ACrzQf3QVeqLmmeS0g0fAMB6mUMIvdnag3NTtZwGZS8m/wr6TExk3/QM YodcDdxvp30ZYu66ex9UwFKRuv8xAD8= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AMsMyM76G5QVuIBoBmIBwpb8UEGih6zmfWgFQ/AhQaYQyOjrq+/aewZVycn0f+w5nytXYZjGlQ/GEQ== X-Received: by 2002:a05:6402:33c5:b0:447:e4a3:c930 with SMTP id a5-20020a05640233c500b00447e4a3c930mr28834465edc.401.1666586409796; Sun, 23 Oct 2022 21:40:09 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: from Mini.fritz.box (pd9e36ae5.dip0.t-ipconnect.de. [217.227.106.229]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id n26-20020a056402061a00b0045c010d0584sm17606011edv.47.2022.10.23.21.40.08 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Sun, 23 Oct 2022 21:40:09 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: (Richard Stallman's message of "Sun, 23 Oct 2022 15:11:51 -0400") Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2a00:1450:4864:20::534; envelope-from=gerd.moellmann@gmail.com; helo=mail-ed1-x534.google.com X-Spam_score_int: 0 X-Spam_score: -0.1 X-Spam_bar: / X-Spam_report: (-0.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URI_DOTEDU=1.997 autolearn=no autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:298331 Archived-At: Richard Stallman writes: > [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]] > [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] > [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > > CL packages are badly designed, and can't work well if implemented in > the natural way (at read time). In your opinion. A lot of people involved in Command Lisp standardizatoun and implementation think they work well enough, and in my and other's experience they do. > The symbol-renaming system, shorthands, is meant can be the basis of a > much better implementation of namespaces. We just need to finish it. I see no need to invent yet another package system. > With that, we will be able to implement packages that work reliably > and without ambiguities. You mention reliability and ambiguity. What do you mean, in a concrete example? P.S. In case you're thinking in terms of the pre-CL package system that some Lisp machines had in the 80s, please read chapter 11 of "Common Lisp the Language 2nd edition" by Guy Steele. CL's package system is not like the older one. CMU has a page from which you can download the book in various formats: https://www.cs.cmu.edu/Groups/AI/html/cltl/cltl2.html