Does Carbon Emacs ignore ~/.emacs ?

Does Carbon Emacs ignore ~/.emacs ?

[BK]

Hi

I am trying to get ILISP working with *Carbon* Emacs (21.1.30) under
OSX.

This involves (amongst other things) to put some load instructions
into ~/.emacs but I have my doubts that Carbon Emacs even bothers to
look at the file.

Is there anything I need to do to get Carbon Emacs to recognise
~/.emacs ?

Yes, I know there is XEmacs, but I do not wish to use it nor do I wish
to discuss why I don't want to use it. Carbon Emacs is therefore the
focus of this question.

tia
rgds
bk

Re: Does Carbon Emacs ignore ~/.emacs ?

[Bijan Soleymani]

bk_usenet@yahoo.co.uk (BK) writes:

> Yes, I know there is XEmacs, but I do not wish to use it nor do I wish
> to discuss why I don't want to use it. Carbon Emacs is therefore the
> focus of this question.

Isn't there a version of emacs for aqua?

I think it can be found here:
http://emacs-on-aqua.sourceforge.net/

P.S. I don't know much about Macs, aqua, carbon, zinc, quartz or any
number of other things. I haven't used a macintosh ever.

Bijan

Re: Does Carbon Emacs ignore ~/.emacs ?

[BK]

Bijan Soleymani <bijan@psq.com> wrote ...

> bk_usenet@yahoo.co.uk (BK) writes:
> 
> > Yes, I know there is XEmacs, but I do not wish to use it nor do I wish
> > to discuss why I don't want to use it. Carbon Emacs is therefore the
> > focus of this question.
> 
> Isn't there a version of emacs for aqua?

Yes, that's the "carbonised" Emacs, hence Carbon Emacs, I am talking
about.

> P.S. I don't know much about Macs, aqua, carbon, zinc, quartz or any
> number of other things. I haven't used a macintosh ever.

Not to worry. It may seem confusing, but it is actually quite simple.

OSX has the ability to run programs written for different APIs and
GUIs.

The native GUI is called Aqua and it uses an API called Cocoa, which
is based on OpenStep/GnuStep. Then there is another API called Carbon,
which allows some backwards compatibility to the legacy MacOS before
OSX. Applications that use the Carbon API can -in principle- run on
both legacy MacOS and OSX/Aqua. Applications that use the Cocoa API
cannot run on legacy Macs, but they could be recompiled to run under
OpenStep or GnuStep.

(Quartz is just a rendering engine inside Aqua, lower level so to
speak, not of concern in this context)

Then there is X11. X11 apps can run under OSX, but only if you install
the X11 GUI in addition to the default Aqua GUI.

Thus, if you have an application that has been ported to Aqua (ie
Emacs), then there might be things that are different and in order to
isolate a problem, it is important not to take things for granted just
because they are fine in another version of the same software.

rgds
bk

Re: Does Carbon Emacs ignore ~/.emacs ?

[Joe Davison]

On 3 May 2003, bk_usenet@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
>  Bijan Soleymani <bijan@psq.com> wrote ...
>  
> > bk_usenet@yahoo.co.uk (BK) writes:
> > 
> > > Yes, I know there is XEmacs, but I do not wish to use it nor do I
> > > wish to discuss why I don't want to use it. Carbon Emacs is
> > > therefore the focus of this question.
> > 
> > Isn't there a version of emacs for aqua?
>  
>  Yes, that's the "carbonised" Emacs, hence Carbon Emacs, I am talking
>  about.
>  
That's good to know, I use it when I don't feel like starting X11 and
using xemacs.   However the version at
http://emacs-on-aqua.sourceforge.net/ appears to be version 20.7
while you started off talking about version 21.1.30, which I presume you
built yourself?

Would you know if there is any plan to update the binary version available at
sourceforge.net with a more recent build?

joe

Re: Does Carbon Emacs ignore ~/.emacs ?

[BK]

Joe Davison <halting@attbi.com> wrote ...

> > > Isn't there a version of emacs for aqua?
> >  
> >  Yes, that's the "carbonised" Emacs, hence Carbon Emacs, I am talking
> >  about.
> >  
> That's good to know, I use it when I don't feel like starting X11 and
> using xemacs.   However the version at
> http://emacs-on-aqua.sourceforge.net/ appears to be version 20.7
> while you started off talking about version 21.1.30, which I presume you
> built yourself?

No, I downloaded it as a binary from

http://www.porkrind.org/emacs/offsite-mirror1/Emacs-21.1.tar.gz

However, at this point in time, I have to ***stress*** that I do *not*
recommend this build *at all*. For me, it exhibits behaviour that I am
convinced no Emacs user would ever tolerate. YMMV, but you have been
warned ;-)

 
> Would you know if there is any plan to update the binary version available at
> sourceforge.net with a more recent build?

No, I don't. However, if you are using Jaguar, then you may want to
check out this one

http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~franconi/mac-emacs/

It is recommended by a lot of folks and they say that it doesn't
exhibit the problems I experienced with 21.1.30.

hope this helps
rgds
bk

Re: Does Carbon Emacs ignore ~/.emacs ?

[Joe Davison]

On 7 May 2003, bk_usenet@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
>  Joe Davison <halting@attbi.com> wrote ...
>  
> > > > Isn't there a version of emacs for aqua?
> > >  
> > >  Yes, that's the "carbonised" Emacs, hence Carbon Emacs, I am
> > >  talking about.
> > >  
> > That's good to know, I use it when I don't feel like starting X11
> > and using xemacs.  However the version at
> > http://emacs-on-aqua.sourceforge.net/ appears to be version 20.7
> > while you started off talking about version 21.1.30, which I presume
> > you built yourself?
>  
>  No, I downloaded it as a binary from
>  
>  http://www.porkrind.org/emacs/offsite-mirror1/Emacs-21.1.tar.gz
>  
>  However, at this point in time, I have to ***stress*** that I do
>  *not* recommend this build *at all*. For me, it exhibits behaviour
>  that I am convinced no Emacs user would ever tolerate. YMMV, but you
>  have been warned ;-)
>  

I've read the other thread. Have you tried the version I mentioned?  I
know the "7.0.1" version ran on 10.1.5, because I  was using it -- it
broke when I moved to 10.2, so there are clearly compatibility issues
there.  However, the version I was using on 10.1.5 did NOT have most of
the problems you mentioned.  Almost all "normal emacs" commands worked,
including C-x modifier commands and the kill & yank (cut & paste)
commands -- using the "normal emacs" keybindings.  Mac conventions were
NOT followed, but the version was very functional -- nothing like the
problems you've mentioned.  With the version I'm running, the situation
is almost the same, although there is more mac-like functionality -- For
instance, drag & drop pasting works one-way -- mac-app (Safari) to
emacs, but not the other direction.   C-x C-c works to quit, as does the
"Quit Emacs" menu item, but not the window close button.  As an added
"feature" :-) Cmd-C (mac copy) also quits the application,
"unexpectedly".  This is on 10.2.5 (and 10.2.6), so it's only of
academic interest to you.   Since it sounds like the later versions
don't have this problem, it's probably time for me to follow the advice
and build myself a new version.

I do wish you luck in getting answers to your specific questions.  I
suspect the simplest answer for your ilisp startup docs might be -
"you'll be better off by far if you upgrade to Jaguar before you try
this", since I suspect everything works, including the mac cut & past by
setting the key-bindings that were listed.  

The Jaguar upgrade is worth the price (if you've got the funds) -- for
lots of reasons.  It also will require upgrading your Developer Tools,
but there's a DevTools CD among the others, at least in my upgrade
package.   I think they've been upgraded again (December,2002) however,
so you'd want to download/copy the CD for those, too.

joe

Re: Does Carbon Emacs ignore ~/.emacs ?

[BK]

Joe Davison <halting@attbi.com> wrote ...

> I've read the other thread. Have you tried the version I mentioned?

I did and tossed it. Don't ask me why, because I tried so many builds
I lost track what exactly was wrong with which one. I didn't exactly
plan for this to become a major field trial you know. Otherwise I'd
either not have started or I would have kept a log for each build ;-)

There were some builds that quit unexpectedly. It may be the one you
mentioned was one of those, but I can't be sure.

I am now trying out what's called extended Emacs. It's carbonised, too
and many people have recommended it. At first I wasn't aware that
there was also an older build that still runs under 10.1 so I didn't
try, but someone posted a link to the older version. Apparently this
needs TeX installed (hence extented Emacs) but I hope it's possible to
do without that.


> know the "7.0.1" version ran on 10.1.5, because I  was using it -- it
> broke when I moved to 10.2, so there are clearly compatibility issues
> there.  However, the version I was using on 10.1.5 did NOT have most of
> the problems you mentioned.  Almost all "normal emacs" commands worked,
> including C-x modifier commands and the kill & yank (cut & paste)
> commands -- using the "normal emacs" keybindings.  Mac conventions were
> NOT followed, but the version was very functional -- nothing like the
> problems you've mentioned.  With the version I'm running, the situation
> is almost the same, although there is more mac-like functionality -- For
> instance, drag & drop pasting works one-way -- mac-app (Safari) to
> emacs, but not the other direction.   C-x C-c works to quit, as does the
> "Quit Emacs" menu item, but not the window close button.  As an added
> "feature" :-) Cmd-C (mac copy) also quits the application,
> "unexpectedly".  This is on 10.2.5 (and 10.2.6), so it's only of
> academic interest to you.   Since it sounds like the later versions
> don't have this problem, it's probably time for me to follow the advice
> and build myself a new version.

thanks for the feedback.

 
> I do wish you luck in getting answers to your specific questions.  I
> suspect the simplest answer for your ilisp startup docs might be -
> "you'll be better off by far if you upgrade to Jaguar before you try
> this", since I suspect everything works, including the mac cut & past by
> setting the key-bindings that were listed.  
> 
> The Jaguar upgrade is worth the price (if you've got the funds) -- for
> lots of reasons.  It also will require upgrading your Developer Tools,
> but there's a DevTools CD among the others, at least in my upgrade
> package.   I think they've been upgraded again (December,2002) however,
> so you'd want to download/copy the CD for those, too.

Two reasons why I am doing this on 10.1. First, I am using this on a
machine with OSX Server (runs some server stuff) and the upgrade is
$999 which I can't justify right now. I won't upgrade the Server
before 10.3. Second, I promised the authors of ILISP to write up a
section how to set up Emacs with ILISP on a Mac with Aqua, they're
going to drop that into the ILISP user guide. This means there will be
some folks with OSX 10.1 and I should really test everything on 10.1
*and* 10.2. I have 10.2 on my iBook but I keep all the development
stuff on the server which is 10.1. I think I am up to date on the
developer tools though.

anyway, thanks for your input, I appreciate it.

rgds
bk

Re: Does Carbon Emacs ignore ~/.emacs ?

[David Kastrup]

bk_usenet@yahoo.co.uk (BK) writes:

> I am now trying out what's called extended Emacs. It's carbonised,
> too and many people have recommended it. At first I wasn't aware
> that there was also an older build that still runs under 10.1 so I
> didn't try, but someone posted a link to the older
> version. Apparently this needs TeX installed (hence extented Emacs)
> but I hope it's possible to do without that.

An Emacs that needs TeX installed to run?  Bloody likely.

-- 
David Kastrup, Kriemhildstr. 15, 44793 Bochum

Re: Does Carbon Emacs ignore ~/.emacs ?

[Ajanta]

> > I am now trying out what's called extended Emacs. It's carbonised,
> > too and many people have recommended it. At first I wasn't aware
> > that there was also an older build that still runs under 10.1 so I
> > didn't try, but someone posted a link to the older
> > version. Apparently this needs TeX installed (hence extented Emacs)
> > but I hope it's possible to do without that.
> 
> An Emacs that needs TeX installed to run?  Bloody likely.

I think it is aimed at people who want emacs as well as tex/latex, and
provides an "integrated" environment. However, the emacs part should
run fine by itself.

Re: Does Carbon Emacs ignore ~/.emacs ?

[tristero]

In article <39d9c156.0305022345.33c850aa@posting.google.com>, BK wrote:
> This involves (amongst other things) to put some load instructions
> into ~/.emacs but I have my doubts that Carbon Emacs even bothers to
> look at the file.

There's nothing unusual about the carbon build in this respect. It
reads ~/.emacs at startup in the usual way.


> Yes, I know there is XEmacs, but I do not wish to use it nor do I wish
> to discuss why I don't want to use it. 

How open-minded of you.

Re: Does Carbon Emacs ignore ~/.emacs ?

[David Kastrup]

tristero <tristero@waste.net> writes:

> In article <39d9c156.0305022345.33c850aa@posting.google.com>, BK wrote:
> > This involves (amongst other things) to put some load instructions
> > into ~/.emacs but I have my doubts that Carbon Emacs even bothers
> > to look at the file.
> 
> There's nothing unusual about the carbon build in this respect. It
> reads ~/.emacs at startup in the usual way.
> 
> 
> > Yes, I know there is XEmacs, but I do not wish to use it nor do I
> > wish to discuss why I don't want to use it.
> 
> How open-minded of you.

I don't think that finding out the name of the right initialization
file should be the main reason to decide on what editor to use.  If
the OP was going out of his way to achieve something that would be of
a crucially different complexity with a different program/system, it
would make sense to discuss his decision.  As it stands, you are just
being ridiculous.

-- 
David Kastrup, Kriemhildstr. 15, 44793 Bochum

Re: Does Carbon Emacs ignore ~/.emacs ?

[BK]

tristero <tristero@waste.net> wrote ...

> BK wrote:
> > This involves (amongst other things) to put some load instructions
> > into ~/.emacs but I have my doubts that Carbon Emacs even bothers to
> > look at the file.
> 
> There's nothing unusual about the carbon build in this respect. It
> reads ~/.emacs at startup in the usual way.

Thanks, that's what I needed to know.


> > Yes, I know there is XEmacs, but I do not wish to use it nor do I wish
> > to discuss why I don't want to use it. 
> 
> How open-minded of you.

It would seem that your comment is an indication that it is indeed
necessary to have such a disclaimer when asking a question these days.

I am to isolate a problem with Carbon Emacs. I might not like it that
way, but that's the way it is. I imagine myself being a car mechanic
and everytime someone brings in a car for repair I am going to suggest
he better buy a different car and instead of trying to fix the
problem, everyone gets engaged in a heated discussion about which car
is better. Doesn't work that way, does it?! Only in the IT world does
this seem to be widely accepted.

rgds
bk

Re: Does Carbon Emacs ignore ~/.emacs ?

[tristero]

In article <39d9c156.0305032148.2e501aba@posting.google.com>, BK wrote:
> It would seem that your comment is an indication that it is indeed
> necessary to have such a disclaimer when asking a question these days.

Well, no.  It's an indication that, if you don't want to discuss a
particular topic, you probably shouldn't go out of your way to bring
it up...

Re: Does Carbon Emacs ignore ~/.emacs ?

[Barry Margolin]

In article <dj9ta.725862$3D1.399025@sccrnsc01>,
tristero  <tristero@waste.net> wrote:
>In article <39d9c156.0305032148.2e501aba@posting.google.com>, BK wrote:
>> It would seem that your comment is an indication that it is indeed
>> necessary to have such a disclaimer when asking a question these days.
>
>Well, no.  It's an indication that, if you don't want to discuss a
>particular topic, you probably shouldn't go out of your way to bring
>it up...

I think he's seen enough threads to know that someone will inevitably
suggest switching to XEmacs, and he was trying to forestall it.
Unfortunately, his plan backfired by spawning a subthread about his
comment.

-- 
Barry Margolin, barry.margolin@level3.com
Genuity Managed Services, a Level(3) Company, Woburn, MA
*** DON'T SEND TECHNICAL QUESTIONS DIRECTLY TO ME, post them to newsgroups.
Please DON'T copy followups to me -- I'll assume it wasn't posted to the group.

Re: Does Carbon Emacs ignore ~/.emacs ?

[Kai Großjohann]

bk_usenet@yahoo.co.uk (BK) writes:

> This involves (amongst other things) to put some load instructions
> into ~/.emacs but I have my doubts that Carbon Emacs even bothers to
> look at the file.

So type C-x C-f ~/.emacs RET from within Emacs, put in the following
two lines, and then see for yourself:

    (message "Hi there, this is .emacs speaking.")
    (sit-for 4)

Now you have 4 seconds to see if the file is being read.

-- 
file-error; Data: (Opening input file no such file or directory ~/.signature)

Re: Does Carbon Emacs ignore ~/.emacs ?

[BK]

kai.grossjohann@gmx.net (Kai Großjohann) wrote ...

> So type C-x C-f ~/.emacs RET from within Emacs, put in the following
> two lines, and then see for yourself:
> 
>     (message "Hi there, this is .emacs speaking.")
>     (sit-for 4)
> 
> Now you have 4 seconds to see if the file is being read.

thanks, but I wanted to make sure that Carbon Emacs is *supposed* to
read ~/.emacs and thus if it doesn't, then this must have some other
reason.

Knowing that Carbon Emacs works for others as expected helps me a
great deal further, thanks.

rgds
bk

Re: Does Carbon Emacs ignore ~/.emacs ?

[Phil Stripling]

bk_usenet@yahoo.co.uk (BK) writes:

> This involves (amongst other things) to put some load instructions
> into ~/.emacs but I have my doubts that Carbon Emacs even bothers to
> look at the file.

I use the emacs that came with my Mac; I use it from the terminal, and I
have a .emacs file that it reads at start up. Where do you have your .emacs
file? 

-- 
Philip Stripling                | email to the replyto address is presumed
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