Re: master 9b762c35a1: Add Sefirot to Omer counting

Re: master 9b762c35a1: Add Sefirot to Omer counting

[Stefan Monnier]

For the benefit of those who look at lists of commits where only the
first line is shown, please make sure the first line of the commit
always includes enough info that the reader can figure out which
part of the code might have been changed.  E.g. a `cal-hebrew.el:`
prefix would have been quite helpful in this particular case.


        Stefan

Re: master 9b762c35a1: Add Sefirot to Omer counting

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca>
> Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org
> Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2022 12:38:54 -0400
> 
> For the benefit of those who look at lists of commits where only the
> first line is shown, please make sure the first line of the commit
> always includes enough info that the reader can figure out which
> part of the code might have been changed.

You mean, you don't know what "Sefirot to Omer" are?

Re: master 9b762c35a1: Add Sefirot to Omer counting

[Stefan Monnier]

Eli Zaretskii [2022-04-28 19:50:09] wrote:
> You mean, you don't know what "Sefirot to Omer" are?

Of course, I do ... now ... vaguely,


        Stefan

Re: master 9b762c35a1: Add Sefirot to Omer counting

[Madhu]

* Stefan Monnier <jwvy1zprv4q.fsf-monnier+emacs@gnu.org> :
Wrote on Thu, 28 Apr 2022 13:21:02 -0400:
> Eli Zaretskii [2022-04-28 19:50:09] wrote:
>> You mean, you don't know what "Sefirot to Omer" are?
> Of course, I do ... now ... vaguely,

To Sam S.: How about adding verse numbers to diary-hebrew-parasha.  When
I was still attempting to learn the language, I could override the
`calendar-hebrew-parashiot-names' variable (see below, I think I got the
list from mechon-mamre), but at some point it became a defconstant and
setq + a later defvar semantics stopped working. Maybe the information
should be overlaid through a different mechanism.  With the setq
approach there is a problem with a %%(diary-hebrew-parasha) entry in an
org-agenda file, as org tries to parse the chapter:verse numbers as
time. (That could be fixed by org-agenda-search-headline-for-time: nil)

(setq calendar-hebrew-parashiot-names [
	"Bereishit	Gen 1:1-6:8; Isa 42:5-43:10;"
	"Noach	Gen 6:9-11:32; Isa 54:1-55:5;"
	"Lekh Lekha	Gen 12:1-17:27; Isa 40:27-41:16;"
	"Vayeira	Gen 18:1-22:24; 2Ki 4:1-37;"
	"Chayei Sarah	Gen 23:1-25:18; 1Ki 1:1-31;"
	"Toldot	Gen 25:19-28:9; Mal 1:1-2:7;"
	"Vayeitzei	Gen 28:10-32:3; Hos 12:13-14:10;"
	"Vayishlach	Gen 32:4-36:43; Hos 11:7-12:12;"
	"Vayyeshev	Gen 37:1-40:23; Amo 2:6-3:8;"
	"Miqeitz	Gen 41:1-44:17; 1Ki 3:15-4:1;"
	"Vayigash	Gen 44:18-47:27; Eze 37:15-28;"
	"Vayechi	Gen 47:28-50:26; 1Ki 2:1-12;"
	"Shemot	Exo 1:1-6:1; Isa 27:6-28:13; 29:22-23;"
	"Va'eira	Exo 6:2-9:35; Eze 28:25-29:21;"
	"Bo	Exo 10:1-13:16; Jer 46:13-28;"
	"Beshalach	Exo 13:17-17:16; Jdg 4:4-5:31;"
	"Yitro	Exo 18:1-20:23; Isa 6:1-7:6; 9:5-6;"
	"Mishpatim	Exo 21:1-24:18; Jer 34:8-22; 33:25-26;"
	"Terumah	Exo 25:1-27:19; 1Ki 5:26-6:13;"
	"Tetzaveh	Exo 27:20-30:10; Eze 43:10-27;"
	"Ki Tisa	Exo 30:11-34:35; 1Ki 18:1-39;"
	"Vayaqhel	Exo 35:1-38:20; 1Ki 7:40-50;"
	"Pequdei	Exo 38:21-40:38; 1Ki 7:51-8:21;"
	"Vayiqra	Lev 1:1-5:26; Isa 43:21-44:23;"
	"Tzav	Lev 6:1-8:36; Jer 7:21-8:3; 9:22-23;"
	"Shemini	Lev 9:1-11:47; 2Sa 6:1-7:17;"
	"Tazria	Lev 12:1-13:59; 2Ki 4:42-5:19;"
	"Metzora	Lev 14:1-15:33; 2Ki 7:3-20;"
	"Acharei	Lev 16:1-18:30; Eze 22:1-16;"
	"Qedoshim	Lev 19:1-20:27; Amos 9:7-15;"
	"Emor	Lev 21:1-24:23; Eze 44:15-31;"
	"Behar	Lev 25:1-26:2; Jer 32:6-27;"
	"Bechuqotai	Lev 26:3-27:34; Jer 16:19-17:14;"
	"Bamidbar	Num 1:1-4:20; Hos 2:1-22;"
	"Nasso	Num 4:21-7:89; Jdg 13:2-25;"
	"Beha'alotkha	Num 8:1-12:16; Zec 2:14-4:7;"
	"Shelach	Num 13:1-15:41; Jos 2:1-24;"
	"Qorach	Num 16:1-18:32; 1Sa 11:14-12:22;"
	"Chuqat	Num 19:1-22:1; Jdg 11:1-33;"
	"Balaq	Num 22:2-25:9; Mic 5:6-6:8;"
	"Pinchas	Num 25:10-30:1; 1Ki 18:46-19:21;"
	"Mattot	Num 30:2-32:42; Jer 1:1-2:3;"
	"Masei	Num 33:1-36:13; Jer 2:4-28; 3:4;"
	"Devarim	Deu 1:1-3:22; Isa 1:1-27;"
	"Va'etchanan	Deu 3:23-7:11; Isa 40:1-26;"
	"Eiqev	Deu 7:12-11:25; Isa 49:14-51:3;"
	"Re'eh	Deu 11:26-16:17; Isa 54:11-55:5;"
	"Shoftim	Deu 16:18-21:9; Isa 51:12-52:12;"
	"Ki Teitzei	Deu 21:10-25:19; Isa 54:1-10;"
	"Ki Tavo	Deu 26:1-29:8; Isa 60:1-22;"
	"Nitzavim	Deu 29:9-30:20; Isa 61:10-63:9;"
	"Vayeilekh	Deu 31:1-31:30; Hos 14:2-10; Joe 2:15-27;"
	"Ha'azinu	Deu 32:1-32:52; 2Sa 22:1-51;"
])

Re: master 9b762c35a1: Add Sefirot to Omer counting

[Richard Stallman]

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

Could someone explain what's going on here?  An index to a particular
religious book is not the sort of thing that belongs in Emacs.  While
there may be many people who would find such indices interesting or
useful, Emacs is not the place for them.


-- 
Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org)
Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org)
Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)

Re: master 9b762c35a1: Add Sefirot to Omer counting

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org>
> Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org
> Date: Thu, 05 May 2022 14:37:43 -0400
> 
> Could someone explain what's going on here?  An index to a particular
> religious book is not the sort of thing that belongs in Emacs.  While
> there may be many people who would find such indices interesting or
> useful, Emacs is not the place for them.

Counting of the Omer is part of the Hebrew calendar.  Each of the 7
weeks of the period of the counting of the Omer, and each of the 7
days of each of these 7 weeks, has significance, so showing them on
the calendar is important.

IOW, this stuff is no more religious than the Hebrew calendar itself.
The URL is just a place that describes the permutations of 7 weeks and
7 days of each week.

Re: master 9b762c35a1: Add Sefirot to Omer counting

[Richard Stallman]

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

  > Counting of the Omer is part of the Hebrew calendar.  Each of the 7
  > weeks of the period of the counting of the Omer, and each of the 7
  > days of each of these 7 weeks, has significance, so showing them on
  > the calendar is important.

That sounds properly calendrical.  But the list of passages
in the Bible, that doesn't seem to fit in what's calendrical.
-- 
Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org)
Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org)
Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)

Re: master 9b762c35a1: Add Sefirot to Omer counting

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org>
> Cc: enometh@meer.net, emacs-devel@gnu.org
> Date: Fri, 06 May 2022 19:18:08 -0400
> 
>   > Counting of the Omer is part of the Hebrew calendar.  Each of the 7
>   > weeks of the period of the counting of the Omer, and each of the 7
>   > days of each of these 7 weeks, has significance, so showing them on
>   > the calendar is important.
> 
> That sounds properly calendrical.  But the list of passages
> in the Bible, that doesn't seem to fit in what's calendrical.

I'm not sure I understand what you mean by "the list of passages in
the Bible" in this context.

Re: master 9b762c35a1: Add Sefirot to Omer counting

[Madhu]

*  Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> <83o809zxjt.fsf@gnu.org>
Wrote on Sat, 07 May 2022 09:06:30 +0300

>>   > Counting of the Omer is part of the Hebrew calendar.  Each of the 7
>>   > weeks of the period of the counting of the Omer, and each of the 7
>>   > days of each of these 7 weeks, has significance, so showing them on
>>   > the calendar is important.
>> That sounds properly calendrical.  But the list of passages
>> in the Bible, that doesn't seem to fit in what's calendrical.
> I'm not sure I understand what you mean by "the list of passages in
> the Bible" in this context.

I posted a message upthread (a suggestion to Sam. S) to include the
verse numbers to `diary-hebrew-parasha', along the lines of his patch.
RMS is objecting to that, which is fine.

Re: master 9b762c35a1: Add Sefirot to Omer counting

[Richard Stallman]

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

  > I'm not sure I understand what you mean by "the list of passages in
  > the Bible" in this context.

This:

(setq calendar-hebrew-parashiot-names [
	"Bereishit	Gen 1:1-6:8; Isa 42:5-43:10;"
	"Noach	Gen 6:9-11:32; Isa 54:1-55:5;"
	"Lekh Lekha	Gen 12:1-17:27; Isa 40:27-41:16;"
	"Vayeira	Gen 18:1-22:24; 2Ki 4:1-37;"
	"Chayei Sarah	Gen 23:1-25:18; 1Ki 1:1-31;"
	"Toldot	Gen 25:19-28:9; Mal 1:1-2:7;"
	"Vayeitzei	Gen 28:10-32:3; Hos 12:13-14:10;"
	"Vayishlach	Gen 32:4-36:43; Hos 11:7-12:12;"
	"Vayyeshev	Gen 37:1-40:23; Amo 2:6-3:8;"
	"Miqeitz	Gen 41:1-44:17; 1Ki 3:15-4:1;"
	"Vayigash	Gen 44:18-47:27; Eze 37:15-28;"
	"Vayechi	Gen 47:28-50:26; 1Ki 2:1-12;"
	"Shemot	Exo 1:1-6:1; Isa 27:6-28:13; 29:22-23;"
	"Va'eira	Exo 6:2-9:35; Eze 28:25-29:21;"
	"Bo	Exo 10:1-13:16; Jer 46:13-28;"
	"Beshalach	Exo 13:17-17:16; Jdg 4:4-5:31;"
	"Yitro	Exo 18:1-20:23; Isa 6:1-7:6; 9:5-6;"
	"Mishpatim	Exo 21:1-24:18; Jer 34:8-22; 33:25-26;"
	"Terumah	Exo 25:1-27:19; 1Ki 5:26-6:13;"
	"Tetzaveh	Exo 27:20-30:10; Eze 43:10-27;"
	"Ki Tisa	Exo 30:11-34:35; 1Ki 18:1-39;"
	"Vayaqhel	Exo 35:1-38:20; 1Ki 7:40-50;"
	"Pequdei	Exo 38:21-40:38; 1Ki 7:51-8:21;"
	"Vayiqra	Lev 1:1-5:26; Isa 43:21-44:23;"
	"Tzav	Lev 6:1-8:36; Jer 7:21-8:3; 9:22-23;"
	"Shemini	Lev 9:1-11:47; 2Sa 6:1-7:17;"
	"Tazria	Lev 12:1-13:59; 2Ki 4:42-5:19;"
	"Metzora	Lev 14:1-15:33; 2Ki 7:3-20;"
	"Acharei	Lev 16:1-18:30; Eze 22:1-16;"
	"Qedoshim	Lev 19:1-20:27; Amos 9:7-15;"
	"Emor	Lev 21:1-24:23; Eze 44:15-31;"
	"Behar	Lev 25:1-26:2; Jer 32:6-27;"
	"Bechuqotai	Lev 26:3-27:34; Jer 16:19-17:14;"
	"Bamidbar	Num 1:1-4:20; Hos 2:1-22;"
	"Nasso	Num 4:21-7:89; Jdg 13:2-25;"
	"Beha'alotkha	Num 8:1-12:16; Zec 2:14-4:7;"
	"Shelach	Num 13:1-15:41; Jos 2:1-24;"
	"Qorach	Num 16:1-18:32; 1Sa 11:14-12:22;"
	"Chuqat	Num 19:1-22:1; Jdg 11:1-33;"
	"Balaq	Num 22:2-25:9; Mic 5:6-6:8;"
	"Pinchas	Num 25:10-30:1; 1Ki 18:46-19:21;"
	"Mattot	Num 30:2-32:42; Jer 1:1-2:3;"
	"Masei	Num 33:1-36:13; Jer 2:4-28; 3:4;"
	"Devarim	Deu 1:1-3:22; Isa 1:1-27;"
	"Va'etchanan	Deu 3:23-7:11; Isa 40:1-26;"
	"Eiqev	Deu 7:12-11:25; Isa 49:14-51:3;"
	"Re'eh	Deu 11:26-16:17; Isa 54:11-55:5;"
	"Shoftim	Deu 16:18-21:9; Isa 51:12-52:12;"
	"Ki Teitzei	Deu 21:10-25:19; Isa 54:1-10;"
	"Ki Tavo	Deu 26:1-29:8; Isa 60:1-22;"
	"Nitzavim	Deu 29:9-30:20; Isa 61:10-63:9;"
	"Vayeilekh	Deu 31:1-31:30; Hos 14:2-10; Joe 2:15-27;"
	"Ha'azinu	Deu 32:1-32:52; 2Sa 22:1-51;"
])

-- 
Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org)
Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org)
Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)

Re: master 9b762c35a1: Add Sefirot to Omer counting

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org>
> Cc: enometh@meer.net, emacs-devel@gnu.org
> Date: Sat, 07 May 2022 19:08:43 -0400
> 
>   > I'm not sure I understand what you mean by "the list of passages in
>   > the Bible" in this context.
> 
> This:
> 
> (setq calendar-hebrew-parashiot-names [
> 	"Bereishit	Gen 1:1-6:8; Isa 42:5-43:10;"
> 	"Noach	Gen 6:9-11:32; Isa 54:1-55:5;"
> 	"Lekh Lekha	Gen 12:1-17:27; Isa 40:27-41:16;"
> 	"Vayeira	Gen 18:1-22:24; 2Ki 4:1-37;"
> 	"Chayei Sarah	Gen 23:1-25:18; 1Ki 1:1-31;"
> 	"Toldot	Gen 25:19-28:9; Mal 1:1-2:7;"
> 	"Vayeitzei	Gen 28:10-32:3; Hos 12:13-14:10;"
> 	"Vayishlach	Gen 32:4-36:43; Hos 11:7-12:12;"
> 	"Vayyeshev	Gen 37:1-40:23; Amo 2:6-3:8;"
> 	"Miqeitz	Gen 41:1-44:17; 1Ki 3:15-4:1;"
> 	"Vayigash	Gen 44:18-47:27; Eze 37:15-28;"
> 	"Vayechi	Gen 47:28-50:26; 1Ki 2:1-12;"
> 	"Shemot	Exo 1:1-6:1; Isa 27:6-28:13; 29:22-23;"
> 	"Va'eira	Exo 6:2-9:35; Eze 28:25-29:21;"
> 	"Bo	Exo 10:1-13:16; Jer 46:13-28;"
> 	"Beshalach	Exo 13:17-17:16; Jdg 4:4-5:31;"
> 	"Yitro	Exo 18:1-20:23; Isa 6:1-7:6; 9:5-6;"
> 	"Mishpatim	Exo 21:1-24:18; Jer 34:8-22; 33:25-26;"
> 	"Terumah	Exo 25:1-27:19; 1Ki 5:26-6:13;"
> 	"Tetzaveh	Exo 27:20-30:10; Eze 43:10-27;"
> 	"Ki Tisa	Exo 30:11-34:35; 1Ki 18:1-39;"
> 	"Vayaqhel	Exo 35:1-38:20; 1Ki 7:40-50;"
> 	"Pequdei	Exo 38:21-40:38; 1Ki 7:51-8:21;"
> 	"Vayiqra	Lev 1:1-5:26; Isa 43:21-44:23;"
> 	"Tzav	Lev 6:1-8:36; Jer 7:21-8:3; 9:22-23;"
> 	"Shemini	Lev 9:1-11:47; 2Sa 6:1-7:17;"
> 	"Tazria	Lev 12:1-13:59; 2Ki 4:42-5:19;"
> 	"Metzora	Lev 14:1-15:33; 2Ki 7:3-20;"
> 	"Acharei	Lev 16:1-18:30; Eze 22:1-16;"
> 	"Qedoshim	Lev 19:1-20:27; Amos 9:7-15;"
> 	"Emor	Lev 21:1-24:23; Eze 44:15-31;"
> 	"Behar	Lev 25:1-26:2; Jer 32:6-27;"
> 	"Bechuqotai	Lev 26:3-27:34; Jer 16:19-17:14;"
> 	"Bamidbar	Num 1:1-4:20; Hos 2:1-22;"
> 	"Nasso	Num 4:21-7:89; Jdg 13:2-25;"
> 	"Beha'alotkha	Num 8:1-12:16; Zec 2:14-4:7;"
> 	"Shelach	Num 13:1-15:41; Jos 2:1-24;"
> 	"Qorach	Num 16:1-18:32; 1Sa 11:14-12:22;"
> 	"Chuqat	Num 19:1-22:1; Jdg 11:1-33;"
> 	"Balaq	Num 22:2-25:9; Mic 5:6-6:8;"
> 	"Pinchas	Num 25:10-30:1; 1Ki 18:46-19:21;"
> 	"Mattot	Num 30:2-32:42; Jer 1:1-2:3;"
> 	"Masei	Num 33:1-36:13; Jer 2:4-28; 3:4;"
> 	"Devarim	Deu 1:1-3:22; Isa 1:1-27;"
> 	"Va'etchanan	Deu 3:23-7:11; Isa 40:1-26;"
> 	"Eiqev	Deu 7:12-11:25; Isa 49:14-51:3;"
> 	"Re'eh	Deu 11:26-16:17; Isa 54:11-55:5;"
> 	"Shoftim	Deu 16:18-21:9; Isa 51:12-52:12;"
> 	"Ki Teitzei	Deu 21:10-25:19; Isa 54:1-10;"
> 	"Ki Tavo	Deu 26:1-29:8; Isa 60:1-22;"
> 	"Nitzavim	Deu 29:9-30:20; Isa 61:10-63:9;"
> 	"Vayeilekh	Deu 31:1-31:30; Hos 14:2-10; Joe 2:15-27;"
> 	"Ha'azinu	Deu 32:1-32:52; 2Sa 22:1-51;"
> ])

OK, but that was just a proposal.  The actual commit in the Subject
doesn't include this list.

Whether or not this belongs to calendar features is a separate
question.  Technically, each week of the Hebrew calendar year has a
different "parashah" assigned to it that is read during that week.  So
this list does have a "calendrical" meaning.

Re: master 9b762c35a1: Add Sefirot to Omer counting

[Richard Stallman]

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

  > OK, but that was just a proposal.  The actual commit in the Subject
  > doesn't include this list.

I didn't know that, but I'm glad.

I think we should draw the line at the dates of religious holidays,
and not include in Emacs details of specific acts of worship that are
carried out on particular dates.  People could load those lists into
their Emacses, but let's not include them in the Emacs sources.






-- 
Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org)
Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org)
Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)

Re: master 9b762c35a1: Add Sefirot to Omer counting

[Madhu]

*  Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> <E1nnqVD-0006hg-TD@fencepost.gnu.org>
Wrote on Sun, 08 May 2022 19:39:51 -0400
>   > OK, but that was just a proposal.  The actual commit in the Subject
>   > doesn't include this list.
> I didn't know that, but I'm glad.
> I think we should draw the line at the dates of religious holidays,
> and not include in Emacs details of specific acts of worship that are
> carried out on particular dates.

I don't understand why you presume the these are only of sectarian or
religious significance.  There may be a prejudiced value judgment here
based on incorrect presumptions, which ends up limiting freedom

>  People could load those lists into
> their Emacses, but let's not include them in the Emacs sources.

Re: master 9b762c35a1: Add Sefirot to Omer counting

[Eric Brown]

Madhu <enometh@meer.net> writes:

> I don't understand why you presume the these are only of sectarian or
> religious significance.  There may be a prejudiced value judgment here
> based on incorrect presumptions, which ends up limiting freedom
>

The biblical references for the Parashat HaShavua and its Haftorah are
definitely religious in nature.

The list shown here is "Orthodox" -- but they are different for the
various denominations of Judaism.

Re: master 9b762c35a1: Add Sefirot to Omer counting

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Eric Brown <ecbrown@ericcbrown.com>
> Cc: rms@gnu.org,  eliz@gnu.org,  emacs-devel@gnu.org
> Date: Mon, 09 May 2022 06:34:13 -0500
> 
> Madhu <enometh@meer.net> writes:
> 
> > I don't understand why you presume the these are only of sectarian or
> > religious significance.  There may be a prejudiced value judgment here
> > based on incorrect presumptions, which ends up limiting freedom
> >
> 
> The biblical references for the Parashat HaShavua and its Haftorah are
> definitely religious in nature.

And the Hebrew calendar itself isn't?  Where do we draw the line?

The proposal was NOT to cite those texts in Emacs, the proposal was
just to _name_ them.  Now, please tell me what is the fundamental
difference between having the string "Bereishit" in Emacs and having
the string "Rosh HaShanah" or "Yom Kippur" in Emacs?  Yom Kippur isn't
just a date, it has a very strong religious meaning, and without that
is just another day.  Or what about "Tzom Gedaliah" -- isn't that a
100% religious notion?

From where I stand, naming or labeling dates is OK in Emacs's
calendar-related features; but _quoting_ religious texts related to
those dates is outside the scope of Emacs.  A label or a name are just
references to a thing, they aren't the thing itself (mumbles the
immortal passage from Alice in Wonderland regarding the difference
between a thing, the name of a thing, the name of the name, etc...)

Re: master 9b762c35a1: Add Sefirot to Omer counting

[Eric Brown]

Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:

>> The biblical references for the Parashat HaShavua and its Haftorah are
>> definitely religious in nature.
>
> And the Hebrew calendar itself isn't?  Where do we draw the line?
>
> The proposal was NOT to cite those texts in Emacs, the proposal was
> just to _name_ them.  Now, please tell me what is the fundamental
> difference between having the string "Bereishit" in Emacs and having
> the string "Rosh HaShanah" or "Yom Kippur" in Emacs?  Yom Kippur isn't
> just a date, it has a very strong religious meaning, and without that
> is just another day.  Or what about "Tzom Gedaliah" -- isn't that a
> 100% religious notion?
>
> From where I stand, naming or labeling dates is OK in Emacs's
> calendar-related features; but _quoting_ religious texts related to
> those dates is outside the scope of Emacs.  A label or a name are just
> references to a thing, they aren't the thing itself (mumbles the
> immortal passage from Alice in Wonderland regarding the difference
> between a thing, the name of a thing, the name of the name, etc...)

I agree that many calendars have religious origin so it's not like Emacs
could be totally devoid of anything even tangential to religion. The
Hebrew calendar is pretty involved; there is a book called a Luach which
is consulted for e.g. Bar Mitzvah planning.

1)  The small point that these are the Parashot _and_ the Haftarot, so
may affect the name of the Lisp form
2)  The cited verses are not the same for all the denominations
- Orthodox Judaism reads the whole Torah completely in one year, but other
groups read it triennially so the proposed verses aren't right for many
- Some years Parashot are combined, some years they aren't
- Haftorot may be different for Ashkenazim and Sephardim
- Inside Eretz Yisrael or in Diaspora due to two-day Chagim causing
special readings and differences in length of Chol HaMoed.

Rising to your challenge to draw the line: Perhaps just enough of
the Hebrew calendar where it has effect on civil society's days off or
what goes on in secular school. So, Rosh HaShanah, Yom Kippur, and the
Shalosh Regalim are definitely days off in Israel. The Omer is counted
from Pesach to Shavuos so I don't see any big controversy here.

If you want to get into usefulness *for me*, the Fast days and
Channukah/Purim could be listed. I am not aware of inter-denominational
differences for those days. It would be "out there" to have the Omer
counted but Purim omitted. :-)

Re: master 9b762c35a1: Add Sefirot to Omer counting

[Eric Brown]

Eric Brown <ecbrown@ericcbrown.com> writes:

>> The proposal was NOT to cite those texts in Emacs, the proposal was
>> just to _name_ them.  Now, please tell me what is the fundamental
>> difference between having the string "Bereishit" in Emacs and having
>> the string "Rosh HaShanah" or "Yom Kippur" in Emacs?

(In case the answer to this question was missed in my previous missive):

I learned a lot about this planning for my daughter's Bat Mitzvah. This
year the weekly parsha was Vayikra *only*, when it is usually Vayikra and
Pekudei.

It turns out that "Bereshit" is probably always correct, but you will
eventually get it wrong due to all the exceptions.

Re: master 9b762c35a1: Add Sefirot to Omer counting

[Sam Steingold]

> * Eric Brown <rpoebja@revppoebja.pbz> [2022-05-09 09:41:08 -0500]:
>
> Rising to your challenge to draw the line: Perhaps just enough of
> the Hebrew calendar where it has effect on civil society's days off or
> what goes on in secular school.

AFAIK no society is actually using the Maya calendar.
Does this mean that Emacs should remove it?

I think the correct criterion should be the same as for all the other
features: if someone implements it, and it is generally useful and does
not interfere with other users (e.g., through excessive bloat), and it
cannot be done easily in ELPA, then why not?

-- 
Sam Steingold (http://sds.podval.org/) on darwin Ns 10.3.2113
http://childpsy.net http://calmchildstories.com http://steingoldpsychology.com
https://honestreporting.com https://ffii.org https://mideasttruth.com
To avoid fatigue, one must sleep 8 hours every day. And 8 hours every night too.

Re: master 9b762c35a1: Add Sefirot to Omer counting

[Richard Stallman]

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

  > > The biblical references for the Parashat HaShavua and its Haftorah are
  > > definitely religious in nature.

  > And the Hebrew calendar itself isn't?

It has to do with religion to some extent, but the crucial thing is
that it is a calendar.  It consists of names of days.

  > The proposal was NOT to cite those texts in Emacs, the proposal was
  > just to _name_ them.

I think we're using the word "cite" with two different meanings, both
valid.  We're talking about including in Emacs the names of certain biblical
texts, right?

                                           Where do we draw the line?

The natural place would be between
(1) identifications/names of specific days, and
(2) specific things some groups customarily DO on specific named days.
The first is part of the calendar; the second is an adjunct used with
the calendar.

-- 
Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org)
Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org)
Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)

Re: master 9b762c35a1: Add Sefirot to Omer counting

[Richard Stallman]

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

  > I don't understand why you presume the these are only of sectarian or
  > religious significance.

That seems to be their main visible significance.

-- 
Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org)
Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org)
Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)

Re: master 9b762c35a1: Add Sefirot to Omer counting

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org>
> Cc: ecbrown@ericcbrown.com, enometh@meer.net, emacs-devel@gnu.org
> Date: Mon, 09 May 2022 19:20:09 -0400
> 
>   > > The biblical references for the Parashat HaShavua and its Haftorah are
>   > > definitely religious in nature.
> 
>   > And the Hebrew calendar itself isn't?
> 
> It has to do with religion to some extent, but the crucial thing is
> that it is a calendar.  It consists of names of days.

I think it consists of much more than that.

>   > The proposal was NOT to cite those texts in Emacs, the proposal was
>   > just to _name_ them.
> 
> I think we're using the word "cite" with two different meanings, both
> valid.  We're talking about including in Emacs the names of certain biblical
> texts, right?
> 
>                                            Where do we draw the line?
> 
> The natural place would be between
> (1) identifications/names of specific days, and
> (2) specific things some groups customarily DO on specific named days.
> The first is part of the calendar; the second is an adjunct used with
> the calendar.

That'd mean any holiday should be excluded, since holidays almost
always are "specific things some groups customarily DO on specific
named days".

I think this is too radical a criterion.

Re: master 9b762c35a1: Add Sefirot to Omer counting

[Richard Stallman]

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

  > That'd mean any holiday should be excluded, since holidays almost
  > always are "specific things some groups customarily DO on specific
  > named days".

We are miscommunicating.  The holidays listed in the Emacs Calendar do
NOT describe things to _do_ on that day.  Not even the religious ones.

"Christmas" does not state what you should do on that day.  "Easter"
does not.  "Yom Kippur" does not.  "Chanukkah" does not.  "Eid el
fitr" does not.  "Martin Luther King Day" does not.  Those holidays
are associated with customs, but what we state in the Emacs calendar
is the holiday name only, NOT customs.

Sometimes we can see a relationship between the name of a holiday and
a way of celebrating it, but the holiday name is not instructions for
what to do.

I believe my criterion

  > > The natural place would be between
  > > (1) identifications/names of specific days, and
  > > (2) specific things some groups customarily DO on specific named days.
  > > The first is part of the calendar; the second is an adjunct used with
  > > the calendar.

would not call for removing anything that is included now.  If you think it
would call for removing something, what precisely?



-- 
Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org)
Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org)
Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)

Re: master 9b762c35a1: Add Sefirot to Omer counting

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org>
> Cc: ecbrown@ericcbrown.com, enometh@meer.net, emacs-devel@gnu.org
> Date: Wed, 11 May 2022 05:04:32 -0400
> 
>   > That'd mean any holiday should be excluded, since holidays almost
>   > always are "specific things some groups customarily DO on specific
>   > named days".
> 
> We are miscommunicating.  The holidays listed in the Emacs Calendar do
> NOT describe things to _do_ on that day.  Not even the religious ones.
> 
> "Christmas" does not state what you should do on that day.  "Easter"
> does not.  "Yom Kippur" does not.  "Chanukkah" does not.  "Eid el
> fitr" does not.  "Martin Luther King Day" does not.  Those holidays
> are associated with customs, but what we state in the Emacs calendar
> is the holiday name only, NOT customs.

But then neither do the names of the Parshiot.  They just name the
Bible chapters, they don't tell what one should do with them.  E.g.,
it is customary to say in Hebrew "Saturday of Breishit", to identify
which Saturday is that (there's only one such Saturday every year).

More generally, what holiday name means is in the eyes of the
beholder.  "Yom Kippur" and "Eid el fitr" may mean nothing to someone
except the name, but may mean the world to someone else, including
_exactly_ what should be done or not done on that day.

> I believe my criterion
> 
>   > > The natural place would be between
>   > > (1) identifications/names of specific days, and
>   > > (2) specific things some groups customarily DO on specific named days.
>   > > The first is part of the calendar; the second is an adjunct used with
>   > > the calendar.
> 
> would not call for removing anything that is included now.  If you think it
> would call for removing something, what precisely?

I already said: every holiday matches (2), IMO.

Re: master 9b762c35a1: Add Sefirot to Omer counting

[Richard Stallman]

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

  > But then neither do the names of the Parshiot.  They just name the
  > Bible chapters, they don't tell what one should do with them.

They don't completely spell it out, but the information they give is
pertinent only to that.  Thus, we can understand them as partial or
incomplete instructions for what to do.

  >   "Yom Kippur" and "Eid el fitr" may mean nothing to someone
  > except the name, but may mean the world to someone else, including
  > _exactly_ what should be done or not done on that day.

Indeed, religious people know their customs for certain holidays, but
that's beside the point.  The issue is, what is proper material to
include in the Emacs calendar?  The calendar should limit itself to
naming holidays and should not try to be a guide for ways of
celebrating them.

There are many religions that have ritual calendars, and people could
circulate machine-readable lists of them which they could load into
Emacs.  There could potentially be hundreds of these.  It is fine if
people use them, but we should not include those lists in Emacs.

  > >   > > The natural place would be between
  > >   > > (1) identifications/names of specific days, and
  > >   > > (2) specific things some groups customarily DO on specific named days.

  > I already said: every holiday matches (2), IMO.

I've already shown that that is not so.


-- 
Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org)
Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org)
Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)

Re: master 9b762c35a1: Add Sefirot to Omer counting

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org>
> Cc: ecbrown@ericcbrown.com, enometh@meer.net, emacs-devel@gnu.org
> Date: Fri, 13 May 2022 11:09:39 -0400
> 
>   > >   > > The natural place would be between
>   > >   > > (1) identifications/names of specific days, and
>   > >   > > (2) specific things some groups customarily DO on specific named days.
> 
>   > I already said: every holiday matches (2), IMO.
> 
> I've already shown that that is not so.

So I guess we will have to agree to disagree on this.