From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: "Robert J. Chassell" Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: link appearance and soft face properties Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 00:57:51 +0000 (UTC) Message-ID: References: Reply-To: bob@rattlesnake.com NNTP-Posting-Host: main.gmane.org X-Trace: sea.gmane.org 1119229185 19049 80.91.229.2 (20 Jun 2005 00:59:45 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 00:59:45 +0000 (UTC) Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Mon Jun 20 02:59:42 2005 Return-path: Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by ciao.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1DkAdO-0002jm-3q for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Mon, 20 Jun 2005 02:59:30 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1DkAfe-0006w9-Vv for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sun, 19 Jun 2005 21:01:50 -0400 Original-Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1DkAf9-0006ku-W6 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 19 Jun 2005 21:01:20 -0400 Original-Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1DkAf6-0006iM-3S for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 19 Jun 2005 21:01:16 -0400 Original-Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1DkAf5-0006hx-Mu for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 19 Jun 2005 21:01:15 -0400 Original-Received: from [69.168.108.225] (helo=rattlesnake.com) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1DkAef-0001aK-3I for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 19 Jun 2005 21:00:49 -0400 Original-Received: by rattlesnake.com via sendmail from stdin id (Debian Smail3.2.0.115) Mon, 20 Jun 2005 00:57:51 +0000 (UTC) Original-To: "Drew Adams" In-reply-to: X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:39134 X-Report-Spam: http://spam.gmane.org/gmane.emacs.devel:39134 ... Users can decide to use it or not use it, but they cannot redefine it. I'm not sure what your point is. Is it my statement that you find weird or the fact that :underline is cast in concrete as underlining? I misunderstood you. I was wrong. You were referring to a name of one of the properties that a face may have, not to its properties in general. But please try to be less confusing. I read ... distinguishing "soft" from "hard" text properties. as refering to text properties, not to names of the text properties. As you say, I suggested we provide a way to make a portion of text appear as a link - in whatever way that appearance might be manifested. That is clear language. The appearance is a text property. That can be changed. The name of a particular appearance is different. That description ought to remain constant. Thus dogs can have different colors of fur, brown, black, or golden. The notion of `dog' is like the notion of `appears as a link'. The name of the color of a dog's fur is like the name of a specific text property for a specific form of markup. Incidentally talking about ... the difference between using Emphasis and Bold markup tags ... is confusing, too. This confusion is different from the confusion between a changeable property and the name for a particular appearance. The confusion between emphasis and bold is like confusing a cat and a dog. When you use emphasis and bold, you are speaking about two different kinds of markup, logical and physical. (Or other words meaning the same.) Emphasis is logical markup; in typeset books, it is usually shown using italics; in Info, underscores. In typeset books, stronger emphasis, often called `strong', is usually shown with bold. In Info, stronger emphasis is shown with asterisks. On the other hand, Bold is physical markup. It only works for typeset works. It does not work for speech or for Info, which uses asterisks. That is why Bold is deprecated in GNU and had been for at least 15 years. You mention TeX and its daughters. They are good programs, but they provide markup for high resolution, printed works, not for other renderings, such as Info. For TeX and its daughters, the use of physical markup works since they are for only one kind of presentation. Many other typesetting applications, many `word processors', are also often for only one kind of presentation. Unfortunately, while this started out well -- the programs enabled ordinary people to typeset -- it turned into a mistake. Among other reasons, Texinfo and man pages were invented a generation ago to overcome that mistake. (Sad to say, bad habits continue and many still write for a single rendering on paper.) -- Robert J. Chassell bob@rattlesnake.com GnuPG Key ID: 004B4AC8 http://www.rattlesnake.com http://www.teak.cc