From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail From: George Plymale II Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Should this package be included into the NS port? Date: Wed, 23 May 2018 15:29:43 -0400 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: blaine.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Trace: blaine.gmane.org 1527103692 4733 195.159.176.226 (23 May 2018 19:28:12 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@blaine.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 23 May 2018 19:28:12 +0000 (UTC) Cc: alan@idiocy.org, monnier@iro.umontreal.ca, emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Nick Helm Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Wed May 23 21:28:07 2018 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by blaine.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fLZQa-00013X-8p for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Wed, 23 May 2018 21:28:04 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:35141 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fLZSh-0001Z9-Bu for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Wed, 23 May 2018 15:30:15 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:50468) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fLZSa-0001We-TF for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 23 May 2018 15:30:10 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fLZSX-0003zv-Oh for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 23 May 2018 15:30:08 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-qt0-x235.google.com ([2607:f8b0:400d:c0d::235]:40145) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:16) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fLZSX-0003zj-Jh for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 23 May 2018 15:30:05 -0400 Original-Received: by mail-qt0-x235.google.com with SMTP id h2-v6so29628547qtp.7 for ; Wed, 23 May 2018 12:30:05 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=orbitalimpact.com; s=google; h=from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:date:message-id:mime-version :content-transfer-encoding; bh=utr2PVSZqBF6gWxgwgV7LOuGvvxtRaEekn8+p3Tp1mg=; b=alG/CM6yZhDa7rjAnkOQfl7HKErFbK0F6EwqltVqD6/YfweizNzda3jotfKhxUcYNg n2MVb6c26vO/HbPbpgtKdq5pvmdOZOuNjDhWOhUM1KwhbM3k+vroJDjziH+lPxkUkvK+ zCIUmBrMo5s1A/t59lKHSuBnm/O4HFelGduuo= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:date:message-id :mime-version:content-transfer-encoding; bh=utr2PVSZqBF6gWxgwgV7LOuGvvxtRaEekn8+p3Tp1mg=; b=R2vm4ZBTfSBUVd9FgzY+gDwRNMkh9du2or3s8Bd3RhlTmla9vrGR7wZBat1OIX4JOs tZL0LZm025v1Wvz8J8LcXP8RboGD3HQz1lEkUPDjSB2CpQLYMPOm8vS64GW3wlkxVjEd 2W5PoiFkw1oGWOzpDjqtHa99whpnZM1G+j7JjDQIu6i+y6VEtLIn6W3Pmz3Hw2rvyhs4 xsPdqXBQ1AQ7huozMeSxAdeuooHJKSe9wWuzEKLOG1vF/US5mvHrrASb81gsqt1rsoat IbGmtXE9WNEzp+2AmRpHcOktmWx5OOpEvdTWfinqlb4D/f6kWMOc9HDgm/tq2ni4j8vA etFw== X-Gm-Message-State: ALKqPwemFW0cxzgV4EiCsllMXndOtFyscSh805fbZoX1Ru+ylYj80Ckq MaVS33dQbpaDfrtA/JwdEV1KAIRMskI= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AB8JxZp0Yyo1mCeuO3VEYLH1OJ8mzKPe1pI2KnT2R04csFZbJLQwCrRvmOQw/BIEN9EDM7QbxKekEw== X-Received: by 2002:a0c:92fb:: with SMTP id c56-v6mr3918290qvc.191.1527103804844; Wed, 23 May 2018 12:30:04 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: from lehi.dev.orbitalimpact.com (ip-131-202-239-173.east.us.northamericancoax.com. [173.239.202.131]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id n29-v6sm16804417qta.94.2018.05.23.12.30.02 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-CHACHA20-POLY1305 bits=256/256); Wed, 23 May 2018 12:30:03 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: (message from Nick Helm on Wed, 23 May 2018 17:22:17 +1200) X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 2607:f8b0:400d:c0d::235 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.21 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:225625 Archived-At: [I had to resend this message because my attached screencast was too big to= be accepted onto the mailing list. I apologize if this creates duplicate entri= es in your inboxes.] Nick Helm writes: > Sorry, I didn't explain it very well. No, the help book topics should be > there. I'm talking about the menu items =E2=80=93 everything from 'Send E= macs > Feedback to Apple' and below.=20=20 > > As I understand it, macOS tries to hide these menu items when the help > search field is populated and only shows them again when the field > becomes empty. But on Emacs they can get added back in when the menu-bar > updates. Oh, okay. I see what you're saying. It's funny that you mention all of this because I actually noticed right after posting my screenshot, that my scree= nshot is kind of misleading. And I didn't even know it was misleading until playi= ng around with Help a bit more. Now I understand what was going on, thanks to = your remarks. But I think it behooves me to post what the actual precise behavio= r was since you've discussed what caused it. The menu items from 'Send Emacs Feedback to Apple' and below actually only appear after removing focus from Help and when the search field is empty, a= s you say. I.e., the Mac Port seems to actually kind of get it right but not 100%= of the time (contrary to what is suggested by my earlier screenshot). Here's a screencast to show precisely what happens with the Help menu on the Mac Port (since a screenshot seems insufficient for this): https://cl.ly/2L2p0J0k053n/Help%20menu%20weirdness.mp4 As a bit of an aside, the Mac Port seems to get a bit screwed up when you t= ry to do certain things while the Help search field is not empty. For example: - While trying to record this screencast, I got Emacs to hang when I clicked Help (and the search field was not empty). - I also got it to hang in another session by having something in the search field and typing "/scp:" in `find-file' (doing a completely unrelated task). - Furthermore, I got it to crash by repeatedly clicking Help when an item w= as in the search field (you can see that mentioned in the screencast itself). Strange stuff, but I guess you're right -- the Mac Port is not perfect in t= his area. I guess that the takeaway here is that Emacs is just all-around weird on macOS. If we really want to get to the root of some of these problems, it w= ould probably be ideal to combine work from both the NS port and the Mac Port an= d see if we can't somehow get Emacs to behave more like a regular Mac app internally. I know that Alan and I already discussed earlier in the thread = why this may not be possible (and may not even be accepted by RMS since he has previously expressed rejection of any Emacs features on OS X which are not = also present on Linux [and there may even be licensing concerns, but I'm not sure about this]), but this really does seem to be the ideal solution. Having a = Mac Port and an NS port seems kind of silly esp. when we're dealing with issues= like this where we would greatly benefit from unity, not fragmentation and deali= ng with the problem(s) separately. Once again, just my 2=C2=A2 Thanks, - George Plymale II