From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Adrian Robert Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Efforts to attract more users? Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2010 13:28:08 +0000 (UTC) Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: dough.gmane.org 1278595711 3463 80.91.229.12 (8 Jul 2010 13:28:31 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2010 13:28:31 +0000 (UTC) To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Thu Jul 08 15:28:28 2010 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1OWr9P-0007EH-Gx for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Thu, 08 Jul 2010 15:28:27 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:33802 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1OWr9O-0004cw-Ul for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Thu, 08 Jul 2010 09:28:26 -0400 Original-Received: from [140.186.70.92] (port=47929 helo=eggs.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1OWr9I-0004ce-5x for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 08 Jul 2010 09:28:21 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1OWr9G-0007jr-Tq for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 08 Jul 2010 09:28:20 -0400 Original-Received: from lo.gmane.org ([80.91.229.12]:41811) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1OWr9G-0007jn-KS for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 08 Jul 2010 09:28:18 -0400 Original-Received: from list by lo.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1OWr9E-00075v-Sn for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 08 Jul 2010 15:28:16 +0200 Original-Received: from a88-115-173-9.elisa-laajakaista.fi ([88.115.173.9]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Thu, 08 Jul 2010 15:28:16 +0200 Original-Received: from Adrian.B.Robert by a88-115-173-9.elisa-laajakaista.fi with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Thu, 08 Jul 2010 15:28:16 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ Original-Lines: 38 Original-X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: sea.gmane.org User-Agent: Loom/3.14 (http://gmane.org/) X-Loom-IP: 88.115.173.9 (Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; Intel Mac OS X 10.6; en; rv:1.9.0.18) Gecko/2010021619 Camino/2.0.2 (like Firefox/3.0.18)) X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:126907 Archived-At: verona.se> writes: > I would like to emphasize that I don't think Emacs should do things the > same way Eclipse does them, we need to find Emacsy ways. Perhaps by > improving the Emacs documentation so it is a more obvious entry point > rather than clicking about in menus. Perhaps the info documentation > could be enhanced so it works more like the web, with improved search > facilities, support for Wizards in the info documentation, etc. It's hard to say. I see lots of developers even using Eclipse in completely non-optimal ways, because there seems to be some kind of bias towards using mouse and on-the-screen display elements for tasks. For example, laboriously navigating a large class hierarchy using the tree display on the left to find a class they know they name of, rather than just invoking "Find Resource" whether by keystroke or menu. Even developers that know about the command still persist in this. What is it? Habit, bias away from the keyboard? Whatever it is, just adding eye candy or wizards to emacs won't change its nature as a keyboard-oriented editing system, and add-ons like JDEE and ECB, great as they are, are never going to match what a widget-oriented system like Eclipse provides. For that matter, why is VIM popular? I've never seen how the weird, line-oriented, moded editing style has anything to compare in ease of use or simplicitly to learn with emacs, yet developer after developer uses it as their "second choice or remote" editor -- while considering emacs "too hard" or "too complicated". (?) I do think the basic mouse and selection interaction there is in emacs needs to continue to be brought more in line with other other apps. The little things, getting default line and word-wrapping modes right, enabling forward delete by default for delete key, etc.. Maybe some kind of reasonable default right-click menus (based on mode of course). -Adrian