From: Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca>
To: taylanbayirli@gmail.com (Taylan Ulrich "Bayırlı/Kammer")
Cc: Philipp Stephani <p.stephani2@gmail.com>,
Artur Malabarba <bruce.connor.am@gmail.com>,
emacs-devel <emacs-devel@gnu.org>
Subject: Re: Calling (package-initialize) sooner during initialization
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2015 15:07:01 -0400 [thread overview]
Message-ID: <jwvy4lmd4cj.fsf-monnier+emacs@gnu.org> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <878udmj2gu.fsf@taylan.uni.cx> ("Taylan Ulrich \"Bayırlı/Kammer\""'s message of "Mon, 20 Apr 2015 16:31:29 +0200")
> I generally feel uncomfortable about a tool automatically editing a file
> that I assume to have control over, but maybe that's fine.
We all do. Yet that's also what custom.el does.
> A concrete problem I can think of is when one has some settings for
> package.el in their init file, then Emacs ends up putting
> (package-initialize) at the top, when it should be after the package
> related settings. Is this not a problem?
Oh yes. And there can be all kinds of other interesting cases.
> with a trick like this. WTF? It might be simple to implement, but
> conceptually it's rather confusing.
Well, conceptually it's simple as well, if you look at it from the
implementation point of view ;-)
> wrong (packages are automatically initialized after loading init.el if
> it hasn't been done there)
Actually, with the new code that auto-adds "(package-initialize)" to
~/.emacs, we should be able to get rid of this hack that calls
package-initialize if the .emacs didn't do so already (tho we'll need
to wait a little, for the usual compatibility reasons).
> and a sign of the package system being crudely bolted on top of
> existing machinery. That's stinky engineering.
Welcome to the world of long-lived programs that need to live with
backward compatibility.
BTW, having a separate pre-package init file would also be stinky
engineering imposed by hysterical raisins. Good engineering would
probably require re-thinking the whole customize-set-variables issue and
maybe also the semantics of defcustom. I'd be happy if someone were to
try and do the work of figuring out what a clean design would look like,
so we'd at least be able to assess whether we can hope to get there from
here without too much pain.
> I hope I'm not coming off as religious.
This is Emacs we're talking about.
> Yes, this is a more involved solution, but it brings some structure into
> Emacs initialization with regard to the role of the package system, and
> its interaction with Customize.
Right, and that's exactly what I don't want: I don't want to impose an
arbitrary structure that happens to suit the current needs.
Tricky dependencies between setting vars and loading their packages can
also exist within customize-set-variables without the existence of package.el.
> think it should be fine to leave that be and only load default.el and
> site-start.el after package initialization. Or can anyone think of
The difference between site-start.el and default.el is that one is
loaded before ~/.emacs and the other after.
Stefan
next prev parent reply other threads:[~2015-04-20 19:07 UTC|newest]
Thread overview: 104+ messages / expand[flat|nested] mbox.gz Atom feed top
2015-04-18 12:25 Calling (package-initialize) sooner during initialization Taylan Ulrich Bayırlı/Kammer
2015-04-18 13:32 ` Artur Malabarba
2015-04-18 14:24 ` Nic Ferrier
2015-04-18 15:16 ` Taylan Ulrich Bayırlı/Kammer
2015-04-18 17:35 ` Artur Malabarba
2015-04-18 18:25 ` Nic Ferrier
2015-04-18 18:48 ` Artur Malabarba
2015-04-18 15:11 ` Taylan Ulrich Bayırlı/Kammer
2015-04-18 17:16 ` Stefan Monnier
2015-04-18 17:56 ` Dmitry Gutov
2015-04-18 18:16 ` Taylan Ulrich Bayırlı/Kammer
2015-04-18 18:32 ` Artur Malabarba
2015-04-19 0:24 ` Drew Adams
2015-04-19 0:38 ` Artur Malabarba
2015-04-18 18:24 ` Artur Malabarba
2015-04-18 18:32 ` Dmitry Gutov
2015-04-19 8:19 ` Artur Malabarba
2015-04-18 18:04 ` Taylan Ulrich Bayırlı/Kammer
2015-04-18 18:23 ` Artur Malabarba
2015-04-19 3:07 ` Stefan Monnier
2015-04-19 6:44 ` Philipp Stephani
2015-04-19 8:11 ` Artur Malabarba
2015-04-18 22:37 ` chad
2015-04-19 6:40 ` Philipp Stephani
2015-04-19 8:04 ` Artur Malabarba
2015-04-20 0:43 ` Stefan Monnier
2015-04-20 7:54 ` Taylan Ulrich Bayırlı/Kammer
2015-04-20 12:42 ` Stefan Monnier
2015-04-20 14:31 ` Taylan Ulrich Bayırlı/Kammer
2015-04-20 16:01 ` Artur Malabarba
2015-04-20 17:29 ` chad
2015-04-20 18:38 ` Artur Malabarba
2015-04-20 19:40 ` chad
2015-04-20 19:07 ` Stefan Monnier [this message]
2015-04-20 15:19 ` Mark Oteiza
2015-04-27 9:52 ` Thierry Volpiatto
2015-04-27 11:03 ` Taylan Ulrich Bayırlı/Kammer
2015-04-27 14:01 ` Drew Adams
2015-04-27 12:32 ` Artur Malabarba
2015-04-27 14:10 ` Drew Adams
2015-04-27 14:15 ` Artur Malabarba
2015-04-27 14:36 ` Thierry Volpiatto
2015-04-27 12:46 ` Stefan Monnier
2015-04-27 13:43 ` Andy Moreton
2015-04-27 15:46 ` Stefan Monnier
2015-04-28 10:11 ` Artur Malabarba
2015-04-28 7:25 ` Oleh Krehel
2015-04-28 7:39 ` Artur Malabarba
2015-04-28 7:42 ` Oleh Krehel
2015-04-28 14:54 ` Wolfgang Jenkner
2015-04-28 16:46 ` Drew Adams
2015-04-28 17:29 ` Wolfgang Jenkner
2015-04-28 18:52 ` Artur Malabarba
2015-04-29 1:20 ` Stefan Monnier
2015-04-28 15:32 ` raman
2015-04-29 8:25 ` Thierry Volpiatto
2015-04-28 15:26 ` raman
2015-04-27 14:13 ` Drew Adams
2015-04-27 14:46 ` Thierry Volpiatto
2015-04-27 15:15 ` Artur Malabarba
2015-04-27 15:52 ` Stefan Monnier
2015-04-28 0:30 ` Stephen J. Turnbull
2015-04-29 8:01 ` Thierry Volpiatto
2015-04-29 13:09 ` Stefan Monnier
2015-04-28 0:25 ` Stephen J. Turnbull
-- strict thread matches above, loose matches on Subject: below --
2015-04-12 12:09 Jorgen Schäfer
2015-04-12 14:26 ` Artur Malabarba
2015-04-12 14:45 ` Jorgen Schäfer
2015-04-12 20:46 ` Stefan Monnier
2015-04-12 14:40 ` Aneesh Kumar K.V
2015-04-12 16:23 ` Artur Malabarba
2015-04-12 20:44 ` Stefan Monnier
2015-04-12 21:02 ` Jorgen Schäfer
2015-04-12 23:22 ` Stefan Monnier
2015-04-13 22:52 ` Artur Malabarba
2015-04-13 22:49 ` Artur Malabarba
2015-04-11 23:10 Vasilij Schneidermann
2015-04-12 1:00 ` Artur Malabarba
2015-04-12 16:46 ` Mark Oteiza
2015-04-12 19:43 ` Artur Malabarba
2015-04-12 20:05 ` Mark Oteiza
2015-04-12 20:28 ` Artur Malabarba
2015-04-12 3:56 ` Stefan Monnier
2015-04-12 9:58 ` Artur Malabarba
2015-04-12 12:02 ` Stefan Monnier
[not found] ` <20150412082125.GA490@odonien>
2015-04-12 10:07 ` Vasilij Schneidermann
2015-04-12 10:28 ` Artur Malabarba
2015-03-30 19:01 Artur Malabarba
2015-03-30 20:44 ` Stefan Monnier
2015-03-31 10:52 ` Artur Malabarba
2015-03-31 12:34 ` Stefan Monnier
2015-04-18 10:46 ` Ted Zlatanov
2015-03-31 8:53 ` Thierry Volpiatto
2015-03-31 10:55 ` Artur Malabarba
2015-03-31 12:29 ` Stefan Monnier
2015-03-31 12:48 ` Dmitry Gutov
2015-03-31 13:19 ` Thierry Volpiatto
2015-03-31 13:47 ` Thierry Volpiatto
2015-03-31 14:03 ` Thierry Volpiatto
2015-03-31 14:56 ` Artur Malabarba
2015-04-01 6:04 ` Thierry Volpiatto
2015-03-31 14:51 ` Sebastian Wiesner
2015-03-31 15:40 ` Artur Malabarba
2015-03-31 20:46 ` Stefan Monnier
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