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* Re: /srv/bzr/emacs/trunk r102688: Minor clean up to silence some gcc warnings.
       [not found] <E1PUCaG-00051g-NC@internal.in.savannah.gnu.org>
@ 2010-12-19 11:41 ` Romain Francoise
  2010-12-19 13:59   ` Stefan Monnier
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 12+ messages in thread
From: Romain Francoise @ 2010-12-19 11:41 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Stefan Monnier; +Cc: emacs-devel

This commit includes a change in src/lread.c that isn't documented.

Also, could you *please* commit ChangeLog cleanups separately?
It's just noise, it makes it harder to review the real changes.



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread

* Re: /srv/bzr/emacs/trunk r102688: Minor clean up to silence some gcc warnings.
  2010-12-19 11:41 ` /srv/bzr/emacs/trunk r102688: Minor clean up to silence some gcc warnings Romain Francoise
@ 2010-12-19 13:59   ` Stefan Monnier
  2010-12-19 15:01     ` Eli Zaretskii
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 12+ messages in thread
From: Stefan Monnier @ 2010-12-19 13:59 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Romain Francoise; +Cc: emacs-devel

> This commit includes a change in src/lread.c that isn't documented.

Oops, indeed that was a pilot error, thanks for noticing.

> Also, could you *please* commit ChangeLog cleanups separately?

No, quite the contrary, people should not commit ChangeLog changes separately.

> It's just noise, it makes it harder to review the real changes.

Indeed, it is.  The solution is to stop maintaining the ChangeLog
files manually.


        Stefan



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread

* Re: /srv/bzr/emacs/trunk r102688: Minor clean up to silence some gcc warnings.
  2010-12-19 13:59   ` Stefan Monnier
@ 2010-12-19 15:01     ` Eli Zaretskii
  2010-12-20  2:53       ` Stefan Monnier
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 12+ messages in thread
From: Eli Zaretskii @ 2010-12-19 15:01 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Stefan Monnier; +Cc: romain, emacs-devel

> From: Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca>
> Date: Sun, 19 Dec 2010 08:59:50 -0500
> Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org
> 
> > Also, could you *please* commit ChangeLog cleanups separately?
> 
> No, quite the contrary, people should not commit ChangeLog changes separately.

He said "ChangeLog cleanups", not "ChangeLog changes".  Whitespace
changes, fixes of dates, reformatting, etc.



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread

* Re: /srv/bzr/emacs/trunk r102688: Minor clean up to silence some gcc warnings.
  2010-12-19 15:01     ` Eli Zaretskii
@ 2010-12-20  2:53       ` Stefan Monnier
  2010-12-20  8:03         ` Štěpán Němec
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 12+ messages in thread
From: Stefan Monnier @ 2010-12-20  2:53 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Eli Zaretskii; +Cc: romain, emacs-devel

>> > Also, could you *please* commit ChangeLog cleanups separately?
>> No, quite the contrary, people should not commit ChangeLog
>> changes separately.
> He said "ChangeLog cleanups", not "ChangeLog changes".  Whitespace
> changes, fixes of dates, reformatting, etc.

Oh, sorry, I'm too dense, aren't I?
Yes, I see it's more contentious, but it boils down to the same:
ChangeLog diffs just shouldn't be looked at.


        Stefan



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread

* Re: /srv/bzr/emacs/trunk r102688: Minor clean up to silence some gcc warnings.
  2010-12-20  2:53       ` Stefan Monnier
@ 2010-12-20  8:03         ` Štěpán Němec
  2010-12-20 14:04           ` Stefan Monnier
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 12+ messages in thread
From: Štěpán Němec @ 2010-12-20  8:03 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Stefan Monnier; +Cc: Eli Zaretskii, romain, emacs-devel

Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> writes:

>>> > Also, could you *please* commit ChangeLog cleanups separately?
>>> No, quite the contrary, people should not commit ChangeLog
>>> changes separately.
>> He said "ChangeLog cleanups", not "ChangeLog changes".  Whitespace
>> changes, fixes of dates, reformatting, etc.
>
> Oh, sorry, I'm too dense, aren't I?
> Yes, I see it's more contentious, but it boils down to the same:
> ChangeLog diffs just shouldn't be looked at.

...which is precisely the point being made -- if you committed ChangeLog
cleanups separately, it would be much easier to never look at them. Not
mentioning bisecting, reverting and all the usual (D)VCS best
practices...

  Štěpán



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread

* Re: /srv/bzr/emacs/trunk r102688: Minor clean up to silence some gcc warnings.
  2010-12-20  8:03         ` Štěpán Němec
@ 2010-12-20 14:04           ` Stefan Monnier
  2010-12-20 14:19             ` Chong Yidong
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 12+ messages in thread
From: Stefan Monnier @ 2010-12-20 14:04 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Štěpán Němec; +Cc: Eli Zaretskii, romain, emacs-devel

> ...which is precisely the point being made -- if you committed ChangeLog
> cleanups separately, it would be much easier to never look at them.

Quite the contrary: they'd even get their own revision-id.

> Not mentioning bisecting, reverting and all the usual (D)VCS best
> practices...

I fail to see the relationship between ChangeLog changes and bisecting.
In any case, the way forward is to stop using ChangeLog files.


        Stefan



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread

* Re: /srv/bzr/emacs/trunk r102688: Minor clean up to silence some gcc warnings.
  2010-12-20 14:04           ` Stefan Monnier
@ 2010-12-20 14:19             ` Chong Yidong
  2010-12-20 15:31               ` /srv/bzr/emacs/trunk r102688: Minor clean up to silence somegcc warnings Drew Adams
  2010-12-20 18:08               ` /srv/bzr/emacs/trunk r102688: Minor clean up to silence some gcc warnings Stefan Monnier
  0 siblings, 2 replies; 12+ messages in thread
From: Chong Yidong @ 2010-12-20 14:19 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Stefan Monnier
  Cc: Eli Zaretskii, romain, Štěpán Němec,
	emacs-devel

Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> writes:

> I fail to see the relationship between ChangeLog changes and
> bisecting.  In any case, the way forward is to stop using ChangeLog
> files.

I still find the ChangeLog rather useful.  Occasional extra verbiage in
the bzr diffs and an extra minute's editing work when merging branches
is not a large price to pay.



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread

* RE: /srv/bzr/emacs/trunk r102688: Minor clean up to silence somegcc warnings.
  2010-12-20 14:19             ` Chong Yidong
@ 2010-12-20 15:31               ` Drew Adams
  2010-12-20 16:51                 ` Karl Fogel
  2010-12-20 18:08               ` /srv/bzr/emacs/trunk r102688: Minor clean up to silence some gcc warnings Stefan Monnier
  1 sibling, 1 reply; 12+ messages in thread
From: Drew Adams @ 2010-12-20 15:31 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 'Chong Yidong', 'Stefan Monnier'
  Cc: 'Eli Zaretskii', emacs-devel

> > In any case, the way forward is to stop using ChangeLog files.
> 
> I still find the ChangeLog rather useful.  Occasional extra 
> verbiage in the bzr diffs and an extra minute's editing work
> when merging branches is not a large price to pay.

And Emacs users often want to or sometimes need to understand the source code,
and sometimes across versions.  And users who write Elisp code sometimes want to
understand development changes within a given release cycle.

Users deserve the source code, including its comments (which often reflect on
implementation or design). Likewise its change logs (ditto).  Users should not
need to access BZR or any other v-c interface to get access to the change-log
info.  Delivering it as part of Emacs helps users.  Beyond delivering it with
Emacs, making it available via http also helps - as in
http://repo.or.cz/w/emacs.git/tree/HEAD:/lisp (or
http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~vcs-imports/emacs/trunk/files/head%3A/lisp/, which
doesn't work as well).

Change-log info is meta-info about the code and its behavior, just like comments
and doc and NEWS are.  Please keep it accessible to users locally, as part of
their Emacs installation/delivery.




^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread

* Re: /srv/bzr/emacs/trunk r102688: Minor clean up to silence somegcc warnings.
  2010-12-20 15:31               ` /srv/bzr/emacs/trunk r102688: Minor clean up to silence somegcc warnings Drew Adams
@ 2010-12-20 16:51                 ` Karl Fogel
  2010-12-20 17:18                   ` Drew Adams
  2010-12-20 18:05                   ` Stefan Monnier
  0 siblings, 2 replies; 12+ messages in thread
From: Karl Fogel @ 2010-12-20 16:51 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Drew Adams
  Cc: 'Chong Yidong', 'Eli Zaretskii',
	'Stefan Monnier', emacs-devel

"Drew Adams" <drew.adams@oracle.com> writes:
>And Emacs users often want to or sometimes need to understand the
>source code, and sometimes across versions.  And users who write Elisp
>code sometimes want to understand development changes within a given
>release cycle.
>
>Users deserve the source code, including its comments (which often reflect on
>implementation or design). Likewise its change logs (ditto).  Users should not
>need to access BZR or any other v-c interface to get access to the change-log
>info.  Delivering it as part of Emacs helps users.  Beyond delivering it with
>Emacs, making it available via http also helps - as in
>http://repo.or.cz/w/emacs.git/tree/HEAD:/lisp (or
>http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~vcs-imports/emacs/trunk/files/head%3A/lisp/, which
>doesn't work as well).
>
>Change-log info is meta-info about the code and its behavior, just like
>comments and doc and NEWS are.  Please keep it accessible to users
>locally, as part of their Emacs installation/delivery.

If "users should not need to access BZR" to get access to change-log
info, then that is not an argument for storing the ChangeLogs in BZR.

It is an argument for generating a user-friendly web page straight from
the version control logs (thus "making it available via http") and doing
something simliar when building a tarball distribution (thus "delivering
it with Emacs").

-Karl



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread

* RE: /srv/bzr/emacs/trunk r102688: Minor clean up to silence somegcc warnings.
  2010-12-20 16:51                 ` Karl Fogel
@ 2010-12-20 17:18                   ` Drew Adams
  2010-12-20 18:05                   ` Stefan Monnier
  1 sibling, 0 replies; 12+ messages in thread
From: Drew Adams @ 2010-12-20 17:18 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 'Karl Fogel'
  Cc: 'Chong Yidong', 'Eli Zaretskii',
	'Stefan Monnier', emacs-devel

> If "users should not need to access BZR" to get access to change-log
> info, then that is not an argument for storing the ChangeLogs in BZR.
> 
> It is an argument for generating a user-friendly web page 
> straight from the version control logs (thus "making it available
> via http") and doing something simliar when building a tarball
> distribution (thus "delivering it with Emacs").

I guess you are agreeing with me, Karl (but I'm not too sure ;-)).

But just because it is helpful (IMO) to provide users such info locally and via
HTTP, that does not mean that we should not also provide vc access to such info.

And it does not say anything about where we "store" the info for Emacs Dev.  The
info can be available in more than one location, by copy and by pointer.  But
(IMO) users should obtain a copy along with the Emacs source code - that was my
point.

Vc systems are handy for creating, accessing, and storing change messages - no
question about it.  All I'm asking is that the info thus recorded continue to be
available also to users locally (and if possible via http), as part of the
delivered Emacs sources.




^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread

* Re: /srv/bzr/emacs/trunk r102688: Minor clean up to silence somegcc warnings.
  2010-12-20 16:51                 ` Karl Fogel
  2010-12-20 17:18                   ` Drew Adams
@ 2010-12-20 18:05                   ` Stefan Monnier
  1 sibling, 0 replies; 12+ messages in thread
From: Stefan Monnier @ 2010-12-20 18:05 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Karl Fogel
  Cc: 'Chong Yidong', 'Eli Zaretskii', Drew Adams,
	emacs-devel

> It is an argument for generating a user-friendly web page straight from
> the version control logs (thus "making it available via http") and doing
> something simliar when building a tarball distribution (thus "delivering
> it with Emacs").

Indeed.  Hopefully, at some point people will understand that this is
implicit in any discussion about getting rid of the ChangeLog files.


        Stefan



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread

* Re: /srv/bzr/emacs/trunk r102688: Minor clean up to silence some gcc warnings.
  2010-12-20 14:19             ` Chong Yidong
  2010-12-20 15:31               ` /srv/bzr/emacs/trunk r102688: Minor clean up to silence somegcc warnings Drew Adams
@ 2010-12-20 18:08               ` Stefan Monnier
  1 sibling, 0 replies; 12+ messages in thread
From: Stefan Monnier @ 2010-12-20 18:08 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Chong Yidong
  Cc: Eli Zaretskii, romain, Štěpán Němec,
	emacs-devel

>> I fail to see the relationship between ChangeLog changes and
>> bisecting.  In any case, the way forward is to stop using ChangeLog
>> files.
> I still find the ChangeLog rather useful.  Occasional extra verbiage in
> the bzr diffs and an extra minute's editing work when merging branches
> is not a large price to pay.

Agreed, which is why I'm not making any particular effort to get rid of
the ChangeLog files.  But I just point out that if someone wants to fix
those pesky ChangeLog diffs, (s)he should work towards getting rid of
the ChangeLog files rather than trying to impose some constraint on how
I edit them.


        Stefan



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread

end of thread, other threads:[~2010-12-20 18:08 UTC | newest]

Thread overview: 12+ messages (download: mbox.gz follow: Atom feed
-- links below jump to the message on this page --
     [not found] <E1PUCaG-00051g-NC@internal.in.savannah.gnu.org>
2010-12-19 11:41 ` /srv/bzr/emacs/trunk r102688: Minor clean up to silence some gcc warnings Romain Francoise
2010-12-19 13:59   ` Stefan Monnier
2010-12-19 15:01     ` Eli Zaretskii
2010-12-20  2:53       ` Stefan Monnier
2010-12-20  8:03         ` Štěpán Němec
2010-12-20 14:04           ` Stefan Monnier
2010-12-20 14:19             ` Chong Yidong
2010-12-20 15:31               ` /srv/bzr/emacs/trunk r102688: Minor clean up to silence somegcc warnings Drew Adams
2010-12-20 16:51                 ` Karl Fogel
2010-12-20 17:18                   ` Drew Adams
2010-12-20 18:05                   ` Stefan Monnier
2010-12-20 18:08               ` /srv/bzr/emacs/trunk r102688: Minor clean up to silence some gcc warnings Stefan Monnier

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