From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Stefan Monnier Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Fiddling with the menus Date: Sun, 09 Aug 2009 01:05:35 -0400 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1249799004 3879 80.91.229.12 (9 Aug 2009 06:23:24 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 9 Aug 2009 06:23:24 +0000 (UTC) Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Xah Lee Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sun Aug 09 08:23:17 2009 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.50) id 1Ma1oJ-00029P-WC for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sun, 09 Aug 2009 08:23:16 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:46144 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ma1oJ-0002Vg-Bt for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sun, 09 Aug 2009 02:23:15 -0400 Original-Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1Ma1oE-0002Vb-RP for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 09 Aug 2009 02:23:10 -0400 Original-Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1Ma1oA-0002UI-KB for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 09 Aug 2009 02:23:10 -0400 Original-Received: from [199.232.76.173] (port=36394 helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ma1oA-0002UC-E3 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 09 Aug 2009 02:23:06 -0400 Original-Received: from ironport2-out.teksavvy.com ([206.248.154.182]:37946) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1Ma1o9-0003gL-SG for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 09 Aug 2009 02:23:06 -0400 X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: ApsEAJsIfkpFxL8W/2dsb2JhbACBUstugjeBYQWCNoUC X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.43,348,1246852800"; d="scan'208";a="43208475" Original-Received: from 69-196-191-22.dsl.teksavvy.com (HELO ceviche.home) ([69.196.191.22]) by ironport2-out.teksavvy.com with ESMTP; 09 Aug 2009 02:22:51 -0400 Original-Received: by ceviche.home (Postfix, from userid 20848) id A5CA0B40CD; Sun, 9 Aug 2009 01:05:35 -0400 (EDT) In-Reply-To: (Stefan Monnier's message of "Sat, 08 Aug 2009 23:36:04 -0400") User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/23.1.50 (gnu/linux) X-detected-operating-system: by monty-python.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:113843 Archived-At: [ Sorry, hit C-c C-c before it was time. Here's the rest of the list. ] > Emacs 22's Tool menu. > The menu items for rmail and gnus do not work out of the box, because > these features need operating system's support and setup that requires > some sys admin expertise. Agreed. The way to fix it is to make M-x rmail and/or M-x gnus run some kind of "wizard" to configure them. > Today, vast majority of people use web based email services, even > among professional programers. Also, unlike the situation of the > 1980s and 1990s, where most programer's =E2=80=9Cworkstation=E2=80=9D mac= hines running > unix are setup to run sendmail services. Today, even linux users, most > are probably not setup to run sendmail. Microsoft Windows, today used > by ~95% of personal computer users world wide, does not come with > =E2=80=9Csendmail=E2=80=9D. Mac OS X uses PostFix as its MTA and is not = enabled > by default. By "sendmail", this menu entry means sendmail.el which uses the "sendmail" command provided by most/all MTAs, including Postfix. Sadly, this command is commonly non-functional, so here again, sendmail.el should run some kind of wizard to make sure that sending email is properly configured. > It is questionable, that the gnus and rmail should have a menu item. These are important packages that deserve to have a visible entry point. > For those programers who might want to use these and have the > expertise to set it up, they can most certainly find out about these > features online or in the Emacs documentation. For the Emacs > die-hards accustomized to using rmail or gnus, they never actually > pull these menus to invoke the commands. They simply type =E2=80=9CM-x r= mail=E2=80=9D > or =E2=80=9CM-x gnus=E2=80=9D. Not necessarily: they may temporarily be using Emacs without access to a keyboard. > The game items seem a bit silly. Maybe, but it costs just one entry. > For Emacs to showoff a game, it should at least show a outstanding > implementation, or some game that has merits to stands itself. (A > typing game implemented in elisp would be suitable, or a Emacs > interface to GNU Go, GNU Chess, Agreed, these would be good. > or music player.) Not exactly a game. > Emacs's help menu. Extremely confusing and chaotic. > In the Emacs's help menu, there are about 30 items. With this many > items, they are more confusing than helpful. Many of these are > outdated, redundant, never used, or FSF propaganda. The following are > some explanation. The Emacs maintainers consider FSF propaganda to be important. > The content of =E2=80=9CEmacs FAQ=E2=80=9D, =E2=80=9CEmacs News=E2=80=9D,= =E2=80=9CEmacs Known Problems=E2=80=9D, are > about 5 or 10 years out of date. If Emacs News is out of date, it's a bug. The "known problems" indeed tend to be very out of date, tho not all of them are. We should probably split this file into sections for problems which have been reported for specific releases (with a note that problems in older releases may still be relevant). The FAQ's maintenance has always been a bit problematic, indeed. I'd be happy to drop it. > Similarly, the =E2=80=9CExternal Packages=E2=80=9D is hopelessly outdated= . For this, > the emacswiki (emacswiki.org) provides far more useful resource. We could link to some web page on www.gnu.org. But we need someone to keep it up-to-date. Maybe along with ELPA. > The =E2=80=9CFind Emacs Packages=E2=80=9D item has rather confusing name.= After using > Emacs 8 hours a day for 10 years, i pulled it today for the first > time, and realized it is a keyword based search on bundled elisp > packages. Looking at the result, it does not seems very useful. For > example, clicking on OOP shows a bunch of modes that really have > little to do with Object Oriented Programing. Perhaps it should go > into the =E2=80=9CSearch Documentation=E2=80=9D sub-menu. This command needs a lot of work to make it useful, I find. > The =E2=80=9CEmacs Psychotherapist=E2=80=9D is the forefront of AI resear= ch in the > 1960s. (It is a implementation of ELIZA) Having it in 1980s is way > cool. Having it in 1990s in a text editor is a novelty. Today, as > a demo of elisp power or as a fun program, it's rather stupid. I'd call it silly, and silliness is a quality. > The =E2=80=9CGetting New Versions=E2=80=9D, =E2=80=9CCopying Condition=E2= =80=9D, =E2=80=9C(Non)Warranty=E2=80=9D are > all redundant. I don't see how they're redundant. But yes, =E2=80=9CGetting New Versions= =E2=80=9D sounds old. It should probably link to www.gnu.org/software/emacs. > In today's web info world, it's silly that a Emacs > users would pull a menu to know where to get new versions. A modern > replacement should be =E2=80=9CCheck Update=E2=80=9D that tells user if h= is Emacs is > up to date, or better, automatically upgrade Emacs as a option. > Such a feature is common in all modern apps. Under GNU/Linux this doesn't belong in the application but in the distribution, and indeed it works just fine for Emacs just like it works for all other applications. For other platforms, we could imagine better support for installers and semi-automatic update, but not until someone writes them. > The =E2=80=9CCopying Condition=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9C(Non)Warranty=E2=80= =9D are part of the licensing > and user agreement. No app today has it as a menu item. All 3 items, > are linked in the =E2=80=9CAbout Emacs=E2=80=9D menu item's doc, and that= is > sufficient and appropriate. Oh, that's what you meant by redundant, then I think I agree. > The =E2=80=9CAbout GNU=E2=80=9D is Richard Stallman's FSF propaganda. It= s inclusion > in Emacs's Help menu is more about politics than as a helpful resource > for the Emacs software. The Emacs manual has FSF propaganda littered > throughout already. This menu item burdens the Help menu with another > non-helpful item. Again, =E2=80=9CAbout Emacs=E2=80=9D has a link to it = already. Politics matter. > The items in =E2=80=9CMore Manuals=E2=80=9D sub-menu, can all be gone exc= ept the =E2=80=9CAll > Other Manuals (Info)=E2=80=9D and the the =E2=80=9CLookup Subject in all = manuals...=E2=80=9D > (info-apropos). The =E2=80=9CAll Other Manuals (Info)=E2=80=9D should be= moved to the > top, and serve as the one entry point for all manuals, and the > info-apropos menu item can move to the =E2=80=9CSearch Documentation=E2= =80=9D > sub menu. That sounds OK. Stefan