From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Stefan Monnier Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.bugs Subject: bug#7291: 24.0.50; `non-essential' is incomprehensible Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2010 16:12:16 -0400 Message-ID: References: <9499566E643B466092A98013C6826011@us.oracle.com> <3457CB74869B424BB0DB5A41C034AED7@us.oracle.com> <7908A4E9737248F79A9D74B584DAEAC9@us.oracle.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Trace: dough.gmane.org 1288298617 6177 80.91.229.12 (28 Oct 2010 20:43:37 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2010 20:43:37 +0000 (UTC) Cc: 7291@debbugs.gnu.org To: "Drew Adams" Original-X-From: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Thu Oct 28 22:43:35 2010 Return-path: Envelope-to: geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1PBZJt-0001cx-NH for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Thu, 28 Oct 2010 22:43:34 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:33721 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1PBZJt-0003Ax-5s for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Thu, 28 Oct 2010 16:43:33 -0400 Original-Received: from [140.186.70.92] (port=51717 helo=eggs.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1PBZJX-00032b-4E for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Thu, 28 Oct 2010 16:43:12 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1PBZJV-0003gY-P6 for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Thu, 28 Oct 2010 16:43:11 -0400 Original-Received: from debbugs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.43]:58243) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1PBZJV-0003gO-NI for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Thu, 28 Oct 2010 16:43:09 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-debbugs by debbugs.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1PBYmU-0004B1-3E; Thu, 28 Oct 2010 16:09:02 -0400 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Resent-From: Stefan Monnier Original-Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Resent-To: owner@debbugs.gnu.org Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2010 20:09:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 7291 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: Original-Received: via spool by 7291-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B7291.128829649216045 (code B ref 7291); Thu, 28 Oct 2010 20:09:02 +0000 Original-Received: (at 7291) by debbugs.gnu.org; 28 Oct 2010 20:08:12 +0000 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1PBYlf-0004Ak-3c for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 28 Oct 2010 16:08:11 -0400 Original-Received: from ironport2-out.teksavvy.com ([206.248.154.183] helo=ironport2-out.pppoe.ca) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1PBYlb-0004Ac-IS for 7291@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 28 Oct 2010 16:08:08 -0400 X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AgwKADd2yUzO+Krc/2dsb2JhbACgVHxyvzqDE4I1BJIq X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.58,253,1286164800"; d="scan'208";a="80974726" Original-Received: from 206-248-170-220.dsl.teksavvy.com (HELO pastel.home) ([206.248.170.220]) by ironport2-out.pppoe.ca with ESMTP/TLS/ADH-AES256-SHA; 28 Oct 2010 16:12:16 -0400 Original-Received: by pastel.home (Postfix, from userid 20848) id 564A9A8559; Thu, 28 Oct 2010 16:12:16 -0400 (EDT) In-Reply-To: <7908A4E9737248F79A9D74B584DAEAC9@us.oracle.com> (Drew Adams's message of "Thu, 28 Oct 2010 11:51:31 -0700") User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.50 (gnu/linux) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list Resent-Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2010 16:09:02 -0400 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-BeenThere: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org List-Id: "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.bugs:41207 Archived-At: >> the answer can be found by using, not the code nor >> the docstring, but: your brain. > Personal insults are really not necessary, Stefan. Honestly, I can't think of any way someone who has the least bit of familiarity with Elisp can wonder "whether `non-essential'=nil or `non-essential'=t means performing a non-essential task (whatever that in turn might mean)". > AFAICT, the _reason_ it is bound there is for Tramp and Tramp alone. No. At most, the problem that triggered the introduction of this was linked to interactions between Tramp and ido/icomplete. So there's a link to Tramp, but it's not there "for Tramp alone". > If some day this var were to have some additional effect, besides > preventing Tramp from reading passwords, then ido.el and icomplete.el > might need to be revisited. No. The whole reason why it has such a docstring and a generic name is so that we can decide whether it's right for icomplete to use it regardless of what Tramp does with it, and similarly we can decide whether it's right for Tramp to use it regardless of where it's bound. > The second change is to state what "non-essential" means here. > It apparently means that the task being performed is so IMPORTANT that > the user should NOT be interrupted (e.g. to read a password). > And that goes somewhat against the usual meaning of "non-essential". That's because you have it backwards: It means that the task being performed is so UNimportant that the user should NOT be interrupted for it. > One could easily suppose that a non-essential task is one that it is > NOT IMPORTANT enough to protect against interruption. Yes, I thought it was so easy to suppose that, that the docstring was understandable. > You seem to be defending the doc as it is only because you wrote it. > It doesn't matter that a user points out that it can be confusing? No, I don't actually defend it. It sucks because I'm bad at it, and I know it. Your bug-report just rubbed me the wrong way: I know I'm bad at it, no need to rub my face in it. "As a longtime professional doc writer" you should be able to provide more constructive criticism, and not only after the Nth email exchange. >> Yes, they perform operations which are non-essential, i.e. >> during which we don't want to pester the user. > Do you see how backward that sounds? No I don't. > Do we want to pester the user only when s?he is performing > _essential_ tasks? We're talking about what the code does, not about what the user does. Stefan