From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail From: Stefan Monnier Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Interoperation between package managers Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2017 04:02:51 -0400 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: blaine.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Trace: blaine.gmane.org 1502697818 5247 195.159.176.226 (14 Aug 2017 08:03:38 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@blaine.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2017 08:03:38 +0000 (UTC) User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/26.0.50 (gnu/linux) Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Radon Rosborough Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Mon Aug 14 10:03:32 2017 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by blaine.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1dhALU-0000xg-78 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Mon, 14 Aug 2017 10:03:32 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:56430 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1dhALa-0008SO-NF for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Mon, 14 Aug 2017 04:03:38 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:47876) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1dhAKy-0008Rz-2K for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 14 Aug 2017 04:03:01 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1dhAKu-0001x5-U5 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 14 Aug 2017 04:03:00 -0400 Original-Received: from pruche.dit.umontreal.ca ([132.204.246.22]:42091) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1dhAKu-0001wl-PQ for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 14 Aug 2017 04:02:56 -0400 Original-Received: from ceviche.home (lechon.iro.umontreal.ca [132.204.27.242]) by pruche.dit.umontreal.ca (8.14.7/8.14.1) with ESMTP id v7E82p9F024595; Mon, 14 Aug 2017 04:02:52 -0400 Original-Received: by ceviche.home (Postfix, from userid 20848) id 2ACAD66334; Mon, 14 Aug 2017 04:02:51 -0400 (EDT) In-Reply-To: (Radon Rosborough's message of "Sun, 13 Aug 2017 17:29:15 -0700") X-NAI-Spam-Flag: NO X-NAI-Spam-Threshold: 5 X-NAI-Spam-Score: 0 X-NAI-Spam-Rules: 2 Rules triggered EDT_SA_DN_PASS=0, RV6092=0 X-NAI-Spam-Version: 2.3.0.9418 : core <6092> : inlines <6018> : streams <1758523> : uri <2482791> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 132.204.246.22 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.21 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:217534 Archived-At: > The current manual [1] implies that it is the responsibility of the > upstream package maintainer to create a -pkg.el file when > packaging their package. If that wasn't the intention, the > documentation should make this clear. But at this point, I would > advise against trying to enforce a new convention, given how useful it > is to have a consistent one established. Using a new, fixed name which doesn't include the package's name is an incompatible change in itself anyway, so it can break various other aspects of compatibility at the same time. >> I was thinking about it in the context of packages which can come >> from the user's config as well as from the system (i.e. installed by >> the sysadmin). > In this case, wouldn't the multiple versions be installed in entirely > different directories anyway? Yes. >> There are other cases where it can make sense. E.g. have both >> foo-1.0 and foo-2.0 installed at the same time, because foo-2.0 >> requires Emacs-25 and you use both Emacs-25 and Emacs-24. > Again, in package.el, what you say makes perfect sense. But in a > source-based package manager, it seems better to handle this by having > the package manager check out the correct revision. That would misbehave if the user runs Emacs-24 and Emacs-25 at the same time (and I'm one of the users who does that pretty much all the time). >> I agree that these needs aren't the most common ones, but you don't >> gain anything by disallowing them, really. > I think you gain something by enforcing a simpler directory naming > convention. Agreed. But you can simplify the naming convention by using a fixed name for the metadata, instead of by disallowing version numbers in the directory name. >> AFAIK this is documented somewhere. > The "somewhere" part is a big part of the issue. If I want to know > something about package.el, maybe I should go to the Packages section > of the manual, or maybe the Packaging section, One of those two, yes. > or maybe elpa.gnu.org, or maybe ELPA's README, That should only be relevant for packaging issues related specifically to GNU ELPA (and elpa.git). > or maybe the Commentary in the source code of package.el, or the > docstrings, or the comments ??? If it's sufficiently technical, yes. > Regarding the format of packages on the server, I think this > documentation is supposed to be at [2], Sounds right. > but it doesn't seem to actually be there. Looks like a bug, then. >> Actually "adding a directory to the load path" is only there by >> accident: it should be done by the autoloads file. > Does that mean M-x update-directory-autoloads will start inserting > load-path manipulation calls into the generated autoload files? No. > Or should package.el roll its own autoload generation routine? It does, indeed: autoload.el was designed to maintain autoloads within an existing file, which can have any arbitrary "preamble". > start if they want to optimize their init. It'd be helpful to know if > the bottleneck was: > > * evaluating autoloads > * processing dependencies > * loading caches > * activating packages that are no longer referenced in the init-file ?? > * etc I don't know of anyone who has investigated this, so AFAIK noone knows the answer. Maybe the time is spent in a silly useless routine that's easy to optimize (I doubt it's the case, FWIW, but it's likely that it can be sped up if needed). Stefan