From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail From: Stefan Monnier Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: [Emacs-diffs] scratch/widen-less a4ba846: Replace prog-widen with consolidating widen calls Date: Fri, 01 Dec 2017 21:53:49 -0500 Message-ID: References: <20171129233237.27462.23351@vcs0.savannah.gnu.org> <20171129233238.504B5204F1@vcs0.savannah.gnu.org> <5d668ce5-1482-a3d4-c01b-7d996a532567@yandex.ru> <20171130214621.GA22157@ACM> <27985594-3bb4-ce88-8928-2ccfeac13eae@yandex.ru> <20171201154913.GB3840@ACM> <20171201224504.GH3840@ACM> NNTP-Posting-Host: blaine.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Trace: blaine.gmane.org 1512183264 8114 195.159.176.226 (2 Dec 2017 02:54:24 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@blaine.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2017 02:54:24 +0000 (UTC) User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/27.0.50 (gnu/linux) Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org, Tom Tromey , Vitalie Spinu , Dmitry Gutov To: Alan Mackenzie Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sat Dec 02 03:54:17 2017 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by blaine.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1eKxwU-0001Vn-4K for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sat, 02 Dec 2017 03:54:14 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:34056 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1eKxwb-00068b-11 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Fri, 01 Dec 2017 21:54:21 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:48714) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1eKxwN-00067R-Bn for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 01 Dec 2017 21:54:10 -0500 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1eKxwK-0001tH-AP for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 01 Dec 2017 21:54:07 -0500 Original-Received: from pmta21.teksavvy.com ([76.10.157.36]:52576) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:RSA_ARCFOUR_SHA1:16) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1eKxwK-0001t2-3v for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 01 Dec 2017 21:54:04 -0500 X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A2G2CABGFSJa/1rWbkFcHQEBBQELAYM8g?= =?us-ascii?q?VSDW4tfjgIBgXw0AZhdhT8EAgKFKkQUAQEBAQEBAQEBA2gohSQBBAFWIwULCw4?= =?us-ascii?q?mEhQYDSQuiX8IqReKWgEBAQEGAgElhTqGe4sZBZMXj0uhCodcmAM2I4FNMhoIM?= =?us-ascii?q?IJkglEcGYFsI4o/AQEB?= X-IPAS-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A2G2CABGFSJa/1rWbkFcHQEBBQELAYM8gVSDW4tfjgIBgXw?= =?us-ascii?q?0AZhdhT8EAgKFKkQUAQEBAQEBAQEBA2gohSQBBAFWIwULCw4mEhQYDSQuiX8Iq?= =?us-ascii?q?ReKWgEBAQEGAgElhTqGe4sZBZMXj0uhCodcmAM2I4FNMhoIMIJkglEcGYFsI4o?= =?us-ascii?q?/AQEB?= X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.45,348,1508817600"; d="scan'208";a="10553314" Original-Received: from 65-110-214-90.cpe.pppoe.ca (HELO pastel.home) ([65.110.214.90]) by smtp.teksavvy.com with ESMTP; 01 Dec 2017 21:53:50 -0500 Original-Received: by pastel.home (Postfix, from userid 20848) id E878161445; Fri, 1 Dec 2017 21:53:49 -0500 (EST) In-Reply-To: <20171201224504.GH3840@ACM> (Alan Mackenzie's message of "Fri, 1 Dec 2017 22:45:04 +0000") X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 76.10.157.36 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.21 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:220607 Archived-At: >> 99% of the multi-major-modes out there use narrowing for that purpose, >> and in practice it doesn't restrict other uses of narrowing. > If that were the case, there would be no restrictions on a major mode > widening and narrowing. From what I understand about the new proposal, > your last paragraph is false. Depends what you expect "use" to mean. For me "call widen" doesn't qualify as "uses narrowing". So I stand by what I said. > By the way, what about that other 1% of multiple-major-modes? How do > they work? Multiple buffers (either by copying text to/from side-buffers, or by use of indirect-buffers). >> I've opposed the use of narrowing for that in the past, but the evidence >> against that opposition is overwhelming. Let's do that and move on. > No. The evidence is that these modes can only work with specially > adapted major modes, Right. And use of narrowing is the way that makes this adaption simplest (in many cases it becomes trivial. See for example how easy it's been to implement mhtml-mode). I don't know of any MMM solution which provides a satisfactory user experience and at the same time works for all major modes, without any need to tweak them at all, no matter how twisted is the major mode's code. Stefan