* Re: Emacs tool bar on Fedora14
2010-11-12 17:44 ` Jan Djärv
@ 2010-11-12 20:39 ` Stefan Monnier
2010-11-15 23:45 ` Andrew W. Nosenko
2010-11-12 21:59 ` Angelo Graziosi
` (2 subsequent siblings)
3 siblings, 1 reply; 21+ messages in thread
From: Stefan Monnier @ 2010-11-12 20:39 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Jan Djärv; +Cc: Emacs, Angelo Graziosi
>>> ** GTK tool bars can have just text, just images or images and text.
>>> Customize `tool-bar-style' to choose style. On a Gnome desktop, the
>>> default is taken from the desktop settings.
>> BTW, I couldn't figure out how to customize it in Gnome. I do remember
>> seeing such an option somewhere (maybe in gnome-appearance-properties)
>> at some point in the past, but I can't seem to find it any more.
> There used to be an Interface tab in Appearance but it has been removed by
> the Gnome people. I guess that is logical, as they seem to move
> towards a customization-free desktop. They decided that both-horiz (icon
> followed by text) is what everybody should have.
> Now you have to edit gconf directly either with gconf-editor or with
> % gconftool-2 --set --type string /desktop/gnome/interface/toolbar_style both
> Other values are both-horiz, text or icons.
I think we should mention it in our documentation. And I also think
there's something more going on: when I try gedit with various settings
of /desktop/gnome/interface/toolbar_style, it's clear that in both-horiz
setting, only some of the buttons get their text, whereas with Emacs
they all do.
That means that both-horiz is quite bearable with gedit but not
with Emacs. And since both-horiz is the default, I think we need to
figure out how to do the same as gedit does (i.e. specify which toolbar
buttons need to have the text displayed in both-horiz and which don't).
Stefan
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread
* Re: Emacs tool bar on Fedora14
2010-11-12 20:39 ` Stefan Monnier
@ 2010-11-15 23:45 ` Andrew W. Nosenko
2010-11-16 6:40 ` Jan Djärv
0 siblings, 1 reply; 21+ messages in thread
From: Andrew W. Nosenko @ 2010-11-15 23:45 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Stefan Monnier; +Cc: Jan Djärv, Angelo Graziosi, Emacs
On Fri, Nov 12, 2010 at 22:39, Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> wrote:
>>>> ** GTK tool bars can have just text, just images or images and text.
>>>> Customize `tool-bar-style' to choose style. On a Gnome desktop, the
>>>> default is taken from the desktop settings.
>>> BTW, I couldn't figure out how to customize it in Gnome. I do remember
>>> seeing such an option somewhere (maybe in gnome-appearance-properties)
>>> at some point in the past, but I can't seem to find it any more.
>> There used to be an Interface tab in Appearance but it has been removed by
>> the Gnome people. I guess that is logical, as they seem to move
>> towards a customization-free desktop. They decided that both-horiz (icon
>> followed by text) is what everybody should have.
>> Now you have to edit gconf directly either with gconf-editor or with
>
>> % gconftool-2 --set --type string /desktop/gnome/interface/toolbar_style both
>
>> Other values are both-horiz, text or icons.
>
> I think we should mention it in our documentation. And I also think
> there's something more going on: when I try gedit with various settings
> of /desktop/gnome/interface/toolbar_style, it's clear that in both-horiz
> setting, only some of the buttons get their text, whereas with Emacs
> they all do.
> That means that both-horiz is quite bearable with gedit but not
> with Emacs. And since both-horiz is the default, I think we need to
> figure out how to do the same as gedit does (i.e. specify which toolbar
> buttons need to have the text displayed in both-horiz and which don't).
http://library.gnome.org/devel/gtk/stable/GtkToolItem.html
gtk_tool_item_set_is_important()
gtk_tool_item_get_is_important()
"is-important" property
--
Andrew W. Nosenko <andrew.w.nosenko@gmail.com>
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread
* Re: Emacs tool bar on Fedora14
2010-11-15 23:45 ` Andrew W. Nosenko
@ 2010-11-16 6:40 ` Jan Djärv
2010-11-16 15:24 ` Stefan Monnier
0 siblings, 1 reply; 21+ messages in thread
From: Jan Djärv @ 2010-11-16 6:40 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Andrew W. Nosenko; +Cc: Emacs, Stefan Monnier, Angelo Graziosi
We don't use Gtk+ tool bar functions to display the text because they are too
limited. Not showing text is not that hard anyway.
Jan D.
Andrew W. Nosenko skrev 2010-11-16 00.45:
> On Fri, Nov 12, 2010 at 22:39, Stefan Monnier<monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> wrote:
>>>>> ** GTK tool bars can have just text, just images or images and text.
>>>>> Customize `tool-bar-style' to choose style. On a Gnome desktop, the
>>>>> default is taken from the desktop settings.
>>>> BTW, I couldn't figure out how to customize it in Gnome. I do remember
>>>> seeing such an option somewhere (maybe in gnome-appearance-properties)
>>>> at some point in the past, but I can't seem to find it any more.
>>> There used to be an Interface tab in Appearance but it has been removed by
>>> the Gnome people. I guess that is logical, as they seem to move
>>> towards a customization-free desktop. They decided that both-horiz (icon
>>> followed by text) is what everybody should have.
>>> Now you have to edit gconf directly either with gconf-editor or with
>>
>>> % gconftool-2 --set --type string /desktop/gnome/interface/toolbar_style both
>>
>>> Other values are both-horiz, text or icons.
>>
>> I think we should mention it in our documentation. And I also think
>> there's something more going on: when I try gedit with various settings
>> of /desktop/gnome/interface/toolbar_style, it's clear that in both-horiz
>> setting, only some of the buttons get their text, whereas with Emacs
>> they all do.
>> That means that both-horiz is quite bearable with gedit but not
>> with Emacs. And since both-horiz is the default, I think we need to
>> figure out how to do the same as gedit does (i.e. specify which toolbar
>> buttons need to have the text displayed in both-horiz and which don't).
>
> http://library.gnome.org/devel/gtk/stable/GtkToolItem.html
> gtk_tool_item_set_is_important()
> gtk_tool_item_get_is_important()
> "is-important" property
>
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread
* Re: Emacs tool bar on Fedora14
2010-11-16 6:40 ` Jan Djärv
@ 2010-11-16 15:24 ` Stefan Monnier
2010-11-16 21:32 ` Jan Djärv
0 siblings, 1 reply; 21+ messages in thread
From: Stefan Monnier @ 2010-11-16 15:24 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Jan Djärv; +Cc: Emacs, Andrew W. Nosenko, Angelo Graziosi
> We don't use Gtk+ tool bar functions to display the text because they are
> too limited. Not showing text is not that hard anyway.
I'm not sure I understand what you're trying to say. To get back to my
argument: since both-horiz is the default, we should be careful to make
it work well enough, similarly to other Gtk apps, by only showing some
of the labels but not all.
Whether that is done by using gtk_tool_item_[gs]et_is_important (and/or
Gtk's toolbar functions to display the text) is rather secondary.
Of course, as a general rule, if we can reuse other people's code, it's
better, but indeed it's not always convenient.
Stefan
> Andrew W. Nosenko skrev 2010-11-16 00.45:
>> On Fri, Nov 12, 2010 at 22:39, Stefan Monnier<monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> wrote:
>>>>> ** GTK tool bars can have just text, just images or images and text.
>>>>> Customize `tool-bar-style' to choose style. On a Gnome desktop, the
>>>>> default is taken from the desktop settings.
>>>>> BTW, I couldn't figure out how to customize it in Gnome. I do remember
>>>>> seeing such an option somewhere (maybe in gnome-appearance-properties)
>>>>> at some point in the past, but I can't seem to find it any more.
>>>> There used to be an Interface tab in Appearance but it has been removed by
>>>> the Gnome people. I guess that is logical, as they seem to move
>>>> towards a customization-free desktop. They decided that both-horiz (icon
>>>> followed by text) is what everybody should have.
>>>> Now you have to edit gconf directly either with gconf-editor or with
>>>
>>>> % gconftool-2 --set --type string /desktop/gnome/interface/toolbar_style both
>>>
>>>> Other values are both-horiz, text or icons.
>>>
>>> I think we should mention it in our documentation. And I also think
>>> there's something more going on: when I try gedit with various settings
>>> of /desktop/gnome/interface/toolbar_style, it's clear that in both-horiz
>>> setting, only some of the buttons get their text, whereas with Emacs
>>> they all do.
>>> That means that both-horiz is quite bearable with gedit but not
>>> with Emacs. And since both-horiz is the default, I think we need to
>>> figure out how to do the same as gedit does (i.e. specify which toolbar
>>> buttons need to have the text displayed in both-horiz and which don't).
>>
>> http://library.gnome.org/devel/gtk/stable/GtkToolItem.html
>> gtk_tool_item_set_is_important()
>> gtk_tool_item_get_is_important()
>> "is-important" property
>>
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread
* Re: Emacs tool bar on Fedora14
2010-11-16 15:24 ` Stefan Monnier
@ 2010-11-16 21:32 ` Jan Djärv
2010-11-16 22:24 ` Stefan Monnier
0 siblings, 1 reply; 21+ messages in thread
From: Jan Djärv @ 2010-11-16 21:32 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Stefan Monnier; +Cc: Emacs, Andrew W. Nosenko, Angelo Graziosi
I'm saying that that function even if called would be a noop. A solution is in the works. I don't understand the urgency.
Jan D.
16 nov 2010 kl. 16:24 skrev Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca>:
>> We don't use Gtk+ tool bar functions to display the text because they are
>> too limited. Not showing text is not that hard anyway.
>
> I'm not sure I understand what you're trying to say. To get back to my
> argument: since both-horiz is the default, we should be careful to make
> it work well enough, similarly to other Gtk apps, by only showing some
> of the labels but not all.
> Whether that is done by using gtk_tool_item_[gs]et_is_important (and/or
> Gtk's toolbar functions to display the text) is rather secondary.
> Of course, as a general rule, if we can reuse other people's code, it's
> better, but indeed it's not always convenient.
>
>
> Stefan
>
>
>> Andrew W. Nosenko skrev 2010-11-16 00.45:
>>> On Fri, Nov 12, 2010 at 22:39, Stefan Monnier<monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> wrote:
>>>>>> ** GTK tool bars can have just text, just images or images and text.
>>>>>> Customize `tool-bar-style' to choose style. On a Gnome desktop, the
>>>>>> default is taken from the desktop settings.
>>>>>> BTW, I couldn't figure out how to customize it in Gnome. I do remember
>>>>>> seeing such an option somewhere (maybe in gnome-appearance-properties)
>>>>>> at some point in the past, but I can't seem to find it any more.
>>>>> There used to be an Interface tab in Appearance but it has been removed by
>>>>> the Gnome people. I guess that is logical, as they seem to move
>>>>> towards a customization-free desktop. They decided that both-horiz (icon
>>>>> followed by text) is what everybody should have.
>>>>> Now you have to edit gconf directly either with gconf-editor or with
>>>>
>>>>> % gconftool-2 --set --type string /desktop/gnome/interface/toolbar_style both
>>>>
>>>>> Other values are both-horiz, text or icons.
>>>>
>>>> I think we should mention it in our documentation. And I also think
>>>> there's something more going on: when I try gedit with various settings
>>>> of /desktop/gnome/interface/toolbar_style, it's clear that in both-horiz
>>>> setting, only some of the buttons get their text, whereas with Emacs
>>>> they all do.
>>>> That means that both-horiz is quite bearable with gedit but not
>>>> with Emacs. And since both-horiz is the default, I think we need to
>>>> figure out how to do the same as gedit does (i.e. specify which toolbar
>>>> buttons need to have the text displayed in both-horiz and which don't).
>>>
>>> http://library.gnome.org/devel/gtk/stable/GtkToolItem.html
>>> gtk_tool_item_set_is_important()
>>> gtk_tool_item_get_is_important()
>>> "is-important" property
>>>
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread
* Re: Emacs tool bar on Fedora14
2010-11-16 21:32 ` Jan Djärv
@ 2010-11-16 22:24 ` Stefan Monnier
0 siblings, 0 replies; 21+ messages in thread
From: Stefan Monnier @ 2010-11-16 22:24 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Jan Djärv; +Cc: Emacs, Andrew W. Nosenko, Angelo Graziosi
> I'm saying that that function even if called would be a noop.
> A solution is in the works. I don't understand the urgency.
I'm not sure what urgency you feel. But in case I was not clear, AFAIC
it just needs to be fixed before Emacs-24 is released, so there's some
time left (there's no clear release schedule for Emacs-24, but I want
its pretest to start before the end of 2011).
Stefan
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread
* Re: Emacs tool bar on Fedora14
2010-11-12 17:44 ` Jan Djärv
2010-11-12 20:39 ` Stefan Monnier
@ 2010-11-12 21:59 ` Angelo Graziosi
2010-11-13 3:43 ` Ted Zlatanov
2010-11-13 16:40 ` Chong Yidong
3 siblings, 0 replies; 21+ messages in thread
From: Angelo Graziosi @ 2010-11-12 21:59 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Jan Djärv; +Cc: Stefan Monnier, Emacs
Il 12/11/2010 18.44, Jan Djärv ha scritto:
>
>
> Stefan Monnier skrev 2010-11-12 00.01:
>>> ** GTK tool bars can have just text, just images or images and text.
>>> Customize `tool-bar-style' to choose style. On a Gnome desktop, the
>>> default
>>> is taken from the desktop settings.
>>
>> BTW, I couldn't figure out how to customize it in Gnome. I do remember
>> seeing such an option somewhere (maybe in gnome-appearance-properties)
>> at some point in the past, but I can't seem to find it any more.
>>
>
> There used to be an Interface tab in Appearance but it has been removed
> by the Gnome people. I guess that is logical, as they seem to move
> towards a customization-free desktop. They decided that both-horiz (icon
> followed by text) is what everybody should have.
>
> Now you have to edit gconf directly either with gconf-editor or with
> % gconftool-2 --set --type string /desktop/gnome/interface/toolbar_style
> both
>
> Other values are both-horiz, text or icons.
Thanks for this informations. Meanwhile, I have fixed customizing
tool-bar-style to 'image'.
Ciao,
Angelo.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread
* Re: Emacs tool bar on Fedora14
2010-11-12 17:44 ` Jan Djärv
2010-11-12 20:39 ` Stefan Monnier
2010-11-12 21:59 ` Angelo Graziosi
@ 2010-11-13 3:43 ` Ted Zlatanov
2010-11-13 9:54 ` Jan Djärv
2010-11-13 16:40 ` Chong Yidong
3 siblings, 1 reply; 21+ messages in thread
From: Ted Zlatanov @ 2010-11-13 3:43 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: emacs-devel
On Fri, 12 Nov 2010 18:44:05 +0100 Jan Djärv <jan.h.d@swipnet.se> wrote:
JD> Now you have to edit gconf directly either with gconf-editor or with
JD> % gconftool-2 --set --type string /desktop/gnome/interface/toolbar_style both
JD> Other values are both-horiz, text or icons.
Perhaps Emacs could provide some way to Customize this?
Ted
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread
* Re: Emacs tool bar on Fedora14
2010-11-13 3:43 ` Ted Zlatanov
@ 2010-11-13 9:54 ` Jan Djärv
2010-11-13 21:48 ` Ted Zlatanov
0 siblings, 1 reply; 21+ messages in thread
From: Jan Djärv @ 2010-11-13 9:54 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Ted Zlatanov; +Cc: emacs-devel
We do. customize `tool-bar-style' to choose style.
Jan D.
Ted Zlatanov skrev 2010-11-13 04.43:
> On Fri, 12 Nov 2010 18:44:05 +0100 Jan Djärv<jan.h.d@swipnet.se> wrote:
>
> JD> Now you have to edit gconf directly either with gconf-editor or with
> JD> % gconftool-2 --set --type string /desktop/gnome/interface/toolbar_style both
>
> JD> Other values are both-horiz, text or icons.
>
> Perhaps Emacs could provide some way to Customize this?
>
> Ted
>
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread
* Re: Emacs tool bar on Fedora14
2010-11-12 17:44 ` Jan Djärv
` (2 preceding siblings ...)
2010-11-13 3:43 ` Ted Zlatanov
@ 2010-11-13 16:40 ` Chong Yidong
2010-11-20 14:54 ` Jan Djärv
3 siblings, 1 reply; 21+ messages in thread
From: Chong Yidong @ 2010-11-13 16:40 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Jan Djärv; +Cc: Angelo Graziosi, Stefan Monnier, Emacs
Jan Djärv <jan.h.d@swipnet.se> writes:
>> BTW, I couldn't figure out how to customize it in Gnome. I do remember
>> seeing such an option somewhere (maybe in gnome-appearance-properties)
>> at some point in the past, but I can't seem to find it any more.
>>
>
> There used to be an Interface tab in Appearance but it has been
> removed by the Gnome people. I guess that is logical, as they seem to
> move towards a customization-free desktop. They decided that
> both-horiz (icon followed by text) is what everybody should have.
The trouble is that this means that only 4-5 buttons will fit on the
tool-bar, by default.
I observe that in Gedit, some of the tool-bar buttons are just icons
(New, Print, Redo, Cut/Copy/Paste, Search), while others are accompanied
by text labels (Open, Save, Undo). This lets them fit more buttons in.
Other Gnome applications do the same thing.
If we are going to use text labels, we should probably implement this.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread
* Re: Emacs tool bar on Fedora14
2010-11-13 16:40 ` Chong Yidong
@ 2010-11-20 14:54 ` Jan Djärv
2010-11-20 20:02 ` Chong Yidong
2010-11-21 17:25 ` Stefan Monnier
0 siblings, 2 replies; 21+ messages in thread
From: Jan Djärv @ 2010-11-20 14:54 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Chong Yidong; +Cc: Angelo Graziosi, Stefan Monnier, Emacs
2010-11-13 17:40, Chong Yidong skrev:
>
> The trouble is that this means that only 4-5 buttons will fit on the
> tool-bar, by default.
>
> I observe that in Gedit, some of the tool-bar buttons are just icons
> (New, Print, Redo, Cut/Copy/Paste, Search), while others are accompanied
> by text labels (Open, Save, Undo). This lets them fit more buttons in.
> Other Gnome applications do the same thing.
>
> If we are going to use text labels, we should probably implement this.
I added a keyword :vert-only to tool bar items to do this and added it to some
of the items in the default and Info tool bars. Even with most icons being
just images, the Emacs tool bars tend to be quite long. Maybe clean out some
items?
Jan D.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread
* Re: Emacs tool bar on Fedora14
2010-11-20 14:54 ` Jan Djärv
@ 2010-11-20 20:02 ` Chong Yidong
2010-11-20 20:26 ` Chong Yidong
2010-11-21 17:25 ` Stefan Monnier
1 sibling, 1 reply; 21+ messages in thread
From: Chong Yidong @ 2010-11-20 20:02 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Jan Djärv; +Cc: Angelo Graziosi, Stefan Monnier, Emacs
Jan Djärv <jan.h.d@swipnet.se> writes:
> I added a keyword :vert-only to tool bar items to do this and added it
> to some of the items in the default and Info tool bars.
Thanks.
> Even with most icons being just images, the Emacs tool bars tend to be
> quite long. Maybe clean out some items?
We can remove "Save As"; in most applications this is considered rare
enough to be left to the menu-bar. We can also remove the "Customize"
button.
Also, we should remove the print icon---currently this sends to the
printer spool without even a warning, which is a real nuisance if you
misclick and are visiting, say, a 10MB file. We need to fix the
menu-bar item for the same reason.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread
* Re: Emacs tool bar on Fedora14
2010-11-20 20:02 ` Chong Yidong
@ 2010-11-20 20:26 ` Chong Yidong
2010-11-21 18:29 ` Jan Djärv
0 siblings, 1 reply; 21+ messages in thread
From: Chong Yidong @ 2010-11-20 20:26 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Jan Djärv; +Cc: Emacs, Stefan Monnier, Angelo Graziosi
Chong Yidong <cyd@stupidchicken.com> writes:
> print icon---currently this sends to the printer spool without even a
> warning, which is a real nuisance if you misclick and are visiting,
> say, a 10MB file. We need to fix the menu-bar item for the same
> reason.
I've just checked in a change to the emacs-23 branch to prompt the user
for confirmation before printing.
As for the tool-bar changes, you can go ahead and make them, on the
trunk.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread
* Re: Emacs tool bar on Fedora14
2010-11-20 20:26 ` Chong Yidong
@ 2010-11-21 18:29 ` Jan Djärv
0 siblings, 0 replies; 21+ messages in thread
From: Jan Djärv @ 2010-11-21 18:29 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Chong Yidong; +Cc: Emacs, Stefan Monnier, Angelo Graziosi
Chong Yidong skrev 2010-11-20 21.26:
> Chong Yidong<cyd@stupidchicken.com> writes:
>
>> print icon---currently this sends to the printer spool without even a
>> warning, which is a real nuisance if you misclick and are visiting,
>> say, a 10MB file. We need to fix the menu-bar item for the same
>> reason.
>
> I've just checked in a change to the emacs-23 branch to prompt the user
> for confirmation before printing.
>
> As for the tool-bar changes, you can go ahead and make them, on the
> trunk.
Done.
Jan D.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread
* Re: Emacs tool bar on Fedora14
2010-11-20 14:54 ` Jan Djärv
2010-11-20 20:02 ` Chong Yidong
@ 2010-11-21 17:25 ` Stefan Monnier
2010-11-21 18:20 ` Jan Djärv
1 sibling, 1 reply; 21+ messages in thread
From: Stefan Monnier @ 2010-11-21 17:25 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Jan Djärv; +Cc: Chong Yidong, Angelo Graziosi, Emacs
> I added a keyword :vert-only to tool bar items to do this and added it to
> some of the items in the default and Info tool bars. Even with most icons
> being just images, the Emacs tool bars tend to be quite long. Maybe clean
> out some items?
Just wondering: shouldn't it be ":horiz-as-well" rather than
":vert-only"? From what I've seen in the few Gtk apps I use, few of the
buttons have a horizontal label, so the ":vert-only == t" is likely to
be a better default than the reverse.
Stefan
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread
* Re: Emacs tool bar on Fedora14
2010-11-21 17:25 ` Stefan Monnier
@ 2010-11-21 18:20 ` Jan Djärv
0 siblings, 0 replies; 21+ messages in thread
From: Jan Djärv @ 2010-11-21 18:20 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Stefan Monnier; +Cc: Chong Yidong, Emacs, Angelo Graziosi
Stefan Monnier skrev 2010-11-21 18.25:
>> I added a keyword :vert-only to tool bar items to do this and added it to
>> some of the items in the default and Info tool bars. Even with most icons
>> being just images, the Emacs tool bars tend to be quite long. Maybe clean
>> out some items?
>
> Just wondering: shouldn't it be ":horiz-as-well" rather than
> ":vert-only"? From what I've seen in the few Gtk apps I use, few of the
> buttons have a horizontal label, so the ":vert-only == t" is likely to
> be a better default than the reverse.
The default should be based on how many Emacs tool bar items that will have
horizontal labels. I just guessed, I haven't done any research. It is easy
enough to change if that is what we want.
Jan D.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread