From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Stefan Monnier via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.help Subject: Iteration macros (was: [External] : Re: Closures - do you understand them well?) Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2022 13:02:26 -0500 Message-ID: References: <87lenh7vrn.fsf@web.de> <87tu25d77o.fsf@gnu.org> <87h6y5pt8k.fsf@web.de> <87bkodpqnk.fsf@web.de> <87tu24yowj.fsf@dataswamp.org> Reply-To: Stefan Monnier Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="20717"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) To: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Cancel-Lock: sha1:SeRRRaPtMAwv9nlfsL7VBfIeROk= Original-X-From: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Sat Dec 10 19:03:06 2022 Return-path: Envelope-to: geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1p44Bl-00056j-TI for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org; Sat, 10 Dec 2022 19:03:05 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1p44BM-0006kU-V0; Sat, 10 Dec 2022 13:02:41 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1p44BK-0006il-Qo for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sat, 10 Dec 2022 13:02:38 -0500 Original-Received: from ciao.gmane.io ([116.202.254.214]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1p44BJ-0007nH-1X for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sat, 10 Dec 2022 13:02:38 -0500 Original-Received: from list by ciao.gmane.io with local (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1p44BG-0004Qz-Hv for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sat, 10 Dec 2022 19:02:34 +0100 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ Received-SPF: pass client-ip=116.202.254.214; envelope-from=geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org; helo=ciao.gmane.io X-Spam_score_int: -16 X-Spam_score: -1.7 X-Spam_bar: - X-Spam_report: (-1.7 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.249, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=no autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.help:141592 Archived-At: > But it's also the case that for a _user_ the syntax > of `(cl-)loop' is complex - certainly much more > complex than the usual Lisp syntax. You essentially > have to learn another language - `loop' - to use it. That's what I meant, actually, yes. I'm not opposed to introducing specialized sublanguages (after all, I've done that myself for `pcase`, `setf`, and `bindat`, and I'm not opposed to things like `rx` or `peg`), but I think what annoys me in `cl-loop` is that you cannot understand each subelement independently because the effect of each element often depends on the presence/absence of other elements or the place where it appears, ...: it's not just a separate language but that language is not modular (and hence in my view is a bad language design). Shiver's [Anatomy of a Loop](https://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/shivers/papers/loop.pdf) is much better in this respect, but I'm still not a big fan because for example (bind ) changes the environment of *subsequent* expressions, which I find ugly (admittedly, he does that in Scheme where `define` already suffers from the same problem). Stefan "who votes for `named-let` :-)"