* What version of Emacs still requires '*' in defcustom docs?
@ 2012-02-11 22:29 Glenn Morris
2012-02-11 22:49 ` Drew Adams
` (2 more replies)
0 siblings, 3 replies; 10+ messages in thread
From: Glenn Morris @ 2012-02-11 22:29 UTC (permalink / raw
To: emacs-devel
The practice of giving the docs of defcustoms a leading '*' doesn't seem
to want to die out. For those of you doing this, what version of Emacs
are you trying to support that requires this?
Eg GNU Emacs has not needed this since at least 21.1 (see user-variable-p).
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 10+ messages in thread
* RE: What version of Emacs still requires '*' in defcustom docs?
2012-02-11 22:29 What version of Emacs still requires '*' in defcustom docs? Glenn Morris
@ 2012-02-11 22:49 ` Drew Adams
2012-02-11 22:53 ` Glenn Morris
2012-02-12 10:16 ` Chong Yidong
2 siblings, 0 replies; 10+ messages in thread
From: Drew Adams @ 2012-02-11 22:49 UTC (permalink / raw
To: 'Glenn Morris', emacs-devel
> The practice of giving the docs of defcustoms a leading '*'
> doesn't seem to want to die out. For those of you doing this,
> what version of Emacs are you trying to support that requires this?
>
> Eg GNU Emacs has not needed this since at least 21.1 (see
> user-variable-p).
Speaking for myself, Emacs 20 (to support, e.g., `set-variable').
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 10+ messages in thread
* Re: What version of Emacs still requires '*' in defcustom docs?
2012-02-11 22:29 What version of Emacs still requires '*' in defcustom docs? Glenn Morris
2012-02-11 22:49 ` Drew Adams
@ 2012-02-11 22:53 ` Glenn Morris
2012-02-11 23:33 ` Drew Adams
2012-02-12 10:16 ` Chong Yidong
2 siblings, 1 reply; 10+ messages in thread
From: Glenn Morris @ 2012-02-11 22:53 UTC (permalink / raw
To: emacs-devel
Glenn Morris wrote:
> Eg GNU Emacs has not needed this since at least 21.1 (see user-variable-p).
PS 21.1 is over 10 years old.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 10+ messages in thread
* RE: What version of Emacs still requires '*' in defcustom docs?
2012-02-11 22:53 ` Glenn Morris
@ 2012-02-11 23:33 ` Drew Adams
0 siblings, 0 replies; 10+ messages in thread
From: Drew Adams @ 2012-02-11 23:33 UTC (permalink / raw
To: 'Glenn Morris', emacs-devel
> > Eg GNU Emacs has not needed this since at least 21.1 (see
> > user-variable-p).
Yes, and it was 21.1 that _introduced_ the bug (#10475), which is still there.
Two steps forward, one step back. Half-baked.
> PS 21.1 is over 10 years old.
So are some Emacs users. ;-)
Does it bother you that `C-h v' should have to accommodate a leading `*' for a
user variable, even though `defcustom' no longer _requires_ a leading `*'? All
it has to do is ignore (strip) it. What's the big deal? The fix is trivial,
and is provided in the bug report.
Besides, `C-h v' needs to do the same thing _anyway_ for a user variable defined
this way:
(defvar toto 42 "*This IS a user var. Always has been.")
`toto' is a user variable, as defined and recognized by `user-variable-p' (which
you cited) and as recognized by `set-variable'.
Circulez ; il n'y a rien a voir.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 10+ messages in thread
* Re: What version of Emacs still requires '*' in defcustom docs?
2012-02-11 22:29 What version of Emacs still requires '*' in defcustom docs? Glenn Morris
2012-02-11 22:49 ` Drew Adams
2012-02-11 22:53 ` Glenn Morris
@ 2012-02-12 10:16 ` Chong Yidong
2012-02-12 15:42 ` Drew Adams
2 siblings, 1 reply; 10+ messages in thread
From: Chong Yidong @ 2012-02-12 10:16 UTC (permalink / raw
To: Glenn Morris; +Cc: emacs-devel
Glenn Morris <rgm@gnu.org> writes:
> The practice of giving the docs of defcustoms a leading '*' doesn't
> seem to want to die out. For those of you doing this, what version of
> Emacs are you trying to support that requires this?
>
> Eg GNU Emacs has not needed this since at least 21.1 (see
> user-variable-p).
FWIW, I intend to convert user-variable-p into an alias for
custom-variable-p after the release.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 10+ messages in thread
* RE: What version of Emacs still requires '*' in defcustom docs?
2012-02-12 10:16 ` Chong Yidong
@ 2012-02-12 15:42 ` Drew Adams
2012-02-12 16:58 ` Stefan Monnier
0 siblings, 1 reply; 10+ messages in thread
From: Drew Adams @ 2012-02-12 15:42 UTC (permalink / raw
To: 'Chong Yidong', 'Glenn Morris'; +Cc: emacs-devel
> > The practice of giving the docs of defcustoms a leading '*' doesn't
> > seem to want to die out. For those of you doing this, what
> > version of Emacs are you trying to support that requires this?
> >
> > Eg GNU Emacs has not needed this since at least 21.1 (see
> > user-variable-p).
>
> FWIW, I intend to convert user-variable-p into an alias for
> custom-variable-p after the release.
So `set-variable' will be broken for user variables defined using `defvar' with
`*'. Or do you plan to modify `custom-variable-p' so it recognizes those as
well? In which case we will lose the distinction between the two kinds of user
variable.
In addition to providing no such details, you gave no reason for the proposed
change. What for? Why is it important to make such a change?
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 10+ messages in thread
* Re: What version of Emacs still requires '*' in defcustom docs?
2012-02-12 15:42 ` Drew Adams
@ 2012-02-12 16:58 ` Stefan Monnier
2012-02-12 17:18 ` Drew Adams
2012-02-13 6:16 ` Stephen J. Turnbull
0 siblings, 2 replies; 10+ messages in thread
From: Stefan Monnier @ 2012-02-12 16:58 UTC (permalink / raw
To: Drew Adams; +Cc: 'Chong Yidong', emacs-devel
> Why is it important to make such a change?
Because complexity is a problem in itself and as maintainers our main
task is to try and keep it in check, so the code doesn't crumble under
its own weight.
Stefan
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 10+ messages in thread
* RE: What version of Emacs still requires '*' in defcustom docs?
2012-02-12 16:58 ` Stefan Monnier
@ 2012-02-12 17:18 ` Drew Adams
2012-02-12 18:17 ` Stefan Monnier
2012-02-13 6:16 ` Stephen J. Turnbull
1 sibling, 1 reply; 10+ messages in thread
From: Drew Adams @ 2012-02-12 17:18 UTC (permalink / raw
To: 'Stefan Monnier'; +Cc: 'Chong Yidong', emacs-devel
> > Why is it important to make such a change?
>
> Because complexity is a problem in itself and as maintainers our main
> task is to try and keep it in check, so the code doesn't crumble under
> its own weight.
So do _nothing_. No added complexity for maintainers.
No loss of features for users.
This code and behavior for users have remained unchanged since at least Emacs
21.1, as some have been eager to point out.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 10+ messages in thread
* Re: What version of Emacs still requires '*' in defcustom docs?
2012-02-12 17:18 ` Drew Adams
@ 2012-02-12 18:17 ` Stefan Monnier
0 siblings, 0 replies; 10+ messages in thread
From: Stefan Monnier @ 2012-02-12 18:17 UTC (permalink / raw
To: Drew Adams; +Cc: 'Chong Yidong', emacs-devel
>> > Why is it important to make such a change?
>> Because complexity is a problem in itself and as maintainers our main
>> task is to try and keep it in check, so the code doesn't crumble under
>> its own weight.
> So do _nothing_. No added complexity for maintainers.
The complexity is there already. It was introduced a long time ago
by defcustom. We now know that it is not worth the effort and it's
better to merge the two concepts, hence removing some complexity.
Stefan
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 10+ messages in thread
* Re: What version of Emacs still requires '*' in defcustom docs?
2012-02-12 16:58 ` Stefan Monnier
2012-02-12 17:18 ` Drew Adams
@ 2012-02-13 6:16 ` Stephen J. Turnbull
1 sibling, 0 replies; 10+ messages in thread
From: Stephen J. Turnbull @ 2012-02-13 6:16 UTC (permalink / raw
To: Stefan Monnier; +Cc: 'Chong Yidong', Drew Adams, emacs-devel
Stefan Monnier writes:
> > Why is it important to make such a change?
>
> Because complexity is a problem in itself and as maintainers our main
> task is to try and keep it in check, so the code doesn't crumble under
> its own weight.
The problem is that this is complexity for the maintainers, and it's
minor.
Making the change of `defvar ... "*..."' to defcustom is imposing
maintenance costs on 3rd-party package maintainers, and potential
additional complexity (in the custom interface) on users. The custom
hierarchies for Gnus and VM are awful in my experience. In reaction,
in some cases I've made a distinction between things that a very few
users might want to change, and defcustoms.
YMMV, but I think if somebody proposes porting this change to XEmacs,
I'll oppose it at least at first.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 10+ messages in thread
end of thread, other threads:[~2012-02-13 6:16 UTC | newest]
Thread overview: 10+ messages (download: mbox.gz follow: Atom feed
-- links below jump to the message on this page --
2012-02-11 22:29 What version of Emacs still requires '*' in defcustom docs? Glenn Morris
2012-02-11 22:49 ` Drew Adams
2012-02-11 22:53 ` Glenn Morris
2012-02-11 23:33 ` Drew Adams
2012-02-12 10:16 ` Chong Yidong
2012-02-12 15:42 ` Drew Adams
2012-02-12 16:58 ` Stefan Monnier
2012-02-12 17:18 ` Drew Adams
2012-02-12 18:17 ` Stefan Monnier
2012-02-13 6:16 ` Stephen J. Turnbull
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