From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Stefan Monnier Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Development Speed Date: Mon, 20 Dec 2021 09:30:48 -0500 Message-ID: References: <87v8zk5d7t.fsf@yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="28920"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/29.0.50 (gnu/linux) Cc: Po Lu , xenodasein@tutanota.de To: xenodasein--- via "Emacs development discussions." Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Mon Dec 20 17:32:41 2021 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1mzLaa-0007N9-Ow for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Mon, 20 Dec 2021 17:32:41 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:60712 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mzLaY-0005v1-HC for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Mon, 20 Dec 2021 11:32:38 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:51300) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mzKFi-0005Hv-9B for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 20 Dec 2021 10:07:11 -0500 Original-Received: from mailscanner.iro.umontreal.ca ([132.204.25.50]:36265) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mzKFV-00088b-9V for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 20 Dec 2021 10:06:56 -0500 Original-Received: from pmg2.iro.umontreal.ca (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by pmg2.iro.umontreal.ca (Proxmox) with ESMTP id 92C34805BA; Mon, 20 Dec 2021 09:30:51 -0500 (EST) Original-Received: from mail01.iro.umontreal.ca (unknown [172.31.2.1]) by pmg2.iro.umontreal.ca (Proxmox) with ESMTP id 282EC80272; Mon, 20 Dec 2021 09:30:50 -0500 (EST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=iro.umontreal.ca; s=mail; t=1640010650; bh=FH/PXzYSMuWOGY5/aAIVIdCK9BKEkqNTqa0sD2EJ/Bk=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:References:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=PLX70NqbrFh8NC4U4U78aNFks3E2GMClGSChOvcJcttlKnijJihVbaCyDaBOgK77C YUAwPcbmMDbeyBbYKlyum9Ab/ZvhpH0rVYadJM4uOlF+RGPMBkWKQOEvDM/8ZTX+Wf jlZKagWqWBh5JT/zoAOSphtkiIV89XIkbwykFJXunNUez7bfT6jz+KbSUy34vxQfMt PhFCh62WMmnK3c9dJSLM7dT6FqvXZCIqTwOUrr+piXsGYIlG+s1+2nlCfJygBDqsBd sM7UUzFPB3qiQ2J9NZDiJ89Mo9FvSrnPiNo0bQdwAyheoWN3naEkl722xCAuv7jVr/ OoIPwze9emxVg== Original-Received: from pastel (unknown [216.154.30.173]) by mail01.iro.umontreal.ca (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id DC07F1209B5; Mon, 20 Dec 2021 09:30:49 -0500 (EST) In-Reply-To: (xenodasein's message of "Mon, 20 Dec 2021 05:16:04 +0100 (CET)") Received-SPF: pass client-ip=132.204.25.50; envelope-from=monnier@iro.umontreal.ca; helo=mailscanner.iro.umontreal.ca X-Spam_score_int: -23 X-Spam_score: -2.4 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.4 / 5.0 requ) DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:282513 Archived-At: Regarding paying technical debt, we could do a lot more of it, indeed, but it takes time and effort and is hard to do without introducing backward incompatible changes. More importantly, we can't force people to do it. This said, I think a lot of the work Emacs maintainers do (as opposed to developers of 3rd party packages) is indeed just that. It's just that some of our debt are "too hard to tackle", so we focus on the smaller things instead :-( >> and why should we use C17?=A0 What advantages does it hold? > This is a legitimate question we can assess. We have slowly moved from K&R C to ANSI C to newer versions of the standard over the years, tho by and large we don't really pay attention to particular versions of the standard but rather to specific features, since the main issue is whether it's supported without too many bugs in the various C compilers that we can expect people to use to build Emacs. > Features like restricted pointers could improve performance? My guess is that you're going to have a hell of a time coming up with a contorted enough benchmark for such an improvement to be reliably measurable in Emacs's code. If it can lead to cleaner code and/or better errors&warnings, I'm all for it, but I don't expect performance improvements to come from the compiler. > But I think the better question is what is the excuse for striving not > to keep up with the latest language standard? (Assuming someone wants > to work on it.) I suggest you choose your words more carefully: "excuse" above implies you think we lie, which doesn't seem like a good starting point for an honest and constructive conversation. Stefan