From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Stefan Monnier Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Emacs learning curve Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2010 00:29:02 +0200 Message-ID: References: <4C3B6A8A.80105@gmx.de> <87wrt0e81n.fsf@telefonica.net> <62E9699C07054418AB66F9C5FCB54E5C@us.oracle.com> <87sk3oe3la.fsf@telefonica.net> <1154D96E7D2F401D849266F359E44BB9@us.oracle.com> <87ocecdzou.fsf@telefonica.net> <2256C17F740A425884AD551DE7758056@us.oracle.com> <87fwzodqqm.fsf@telefonica.net> <5138CDF30B2D4B778F948015614DA7BC@us.oracle.com> <87iq4ijtdy.fsf@lola.goethe.zz> NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: dough.gmane.org 1279840668 23935 80.91.229.12 (22 Jul 2010 23:17:48 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2010 23:17:48 +0000 (UTC) Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Tom Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Fri Jul 23 01:17:45 2010 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Oc51N-000756-3u for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Fri, 23 Jul 2010 01:17:45 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:41337 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Oc51M-0001Tv-CL for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Thu, 22 Jul 2010 19:17:44 -0400 Original-Received: from [140.186.70.92] (port=42721 helo=eggs.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Oc4GM-0007IA-75 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 22 Jul 2010 18:29:11 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Oc4GK-0007ov-LD for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 22 Jul 2010 18:29:09 -0400 Original-Received: from pruche.dit.umontreal.ca ([132.204.246.22]:36792) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Oc4GK-0007oU-Gm for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 22 Jul 2010 18:29:08 -0400 Original-Received: from ceviche.home (vpn-132-204-232-69.acd.umontreal.ca [132.204.232.69]) by pruche.dit.umontreal.ca (8.14.1/8.14.1) with ESMTP id o6MMT3g5024763; Thu, 22 Jul 2010 18:29:04 -0400 Original-Received: by ceviche.home (Postfix, from userid 20848) id 46AA6660D2; Fri, 23 Jul 2010 00:29:02 +0200 (CEST) In-Reply-To: (Tom's message of "Thu, 15 Jul 2010 08:51:59 +0000 (UTC)") User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.50 (gnu/linux) X-NAI-Spam-Score: 0 X-NAI-Spam-Rules: 1 Rules triggered RV3584=0 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:127664 Archived-At: > By keeping Emacs decidely different from other, more popular UIs > you keep most of new users out and consequently competent > contributors as well. While this may very well be true, I think this is unavoidable. Changing the UI of Emacs is very difficult, because this UI has been with us for 25 years and is embedded in pretty much every package out there (bundled and not bundled), so changing it without making Emacs even more of an inconsistent mess than it already is (and hence without alienating all its current users) is nigh on impossible. I would welcome attempts to do it, of course. But I won't hold my breath. BTW, while as a user you may notice those UI problems quite easily, as a developer you'd notice plenty of comparable problems in Elisp's design, and for very similar reasons they can't get fixed. IOW fixing Emacs requires rewriting it from scratch, throwing away backward compatibility. Stefan