From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Stefan Monnier Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Emacs learning curve Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2010 11:19:20 +0200 Message-ID: References: <10954D02-E217-49F3-8824-757DA34074AB@gmail.com> <83zkxzakr0.fsf@gnu.org> <83pqyva8ms.fsf@gnu.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: dough.gmane.org 1280740784 31126 80.91.229.12 (2 Aug 2010 09:19:44 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2010 09:19:44 +0000 (UTC) Cc: Tom , emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Eli Zaretskii Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Mon Aug 02 11:19:39 2010 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1OfrBG-0006FW-V6 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Mon, 02 Aug 2010 11:19:35 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:36455 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1OfrBG-0005R0-9G for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Mon, 02 Aug 2010 05:19:34 -0400 Original-Received: from [140.186.70.92] (port=41565 helo=eggs.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1OfrB7-0005QZ-Pd for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 02 Aug 2010 05:19:27 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1OfrB5-0007kn-WA for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 02 Aug 2010 05:19:25 -0400 Original-Received: from impaqm3.telefonica.net ([213.4.138.3]:8945) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1OfrB5-0007k6-Ok for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 02 Aug 2010 05:19:23 -0400 Original-Received: from IMPmailhost5.adm.correo ([10.20.102.126]) by IMPaqm3.telefonica.net with bizsmtp id pKBz1e0122jdgqJ3PMKMlg; Mon, 02 Aug 2010 11:19:21 +0200 Original-Received: from ceviche.home ([83.61.38.247]) by IMPmailhost5.adm.correo with BIZ IMP id pMKL1e00S5KwfZf1lMKMyP; Mon, 02 Aug 2010 11:19:21 +0200 X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAA== X-TE-authinfo: authemail="monnier$movistar.es" |auth_email="monnier@movistar.es" X-TE-AcuTerraCos: auth_cuTerraCos="cosuitnetc01" Original-Received: by ceviche.home (Postfix, from userid 20848) id 84EA466125; Mon, 2 Aug 2010 11:19:20 +0200 (CEST) In-Reply-To: <83pqyva8ms.fsf@gnu.org> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Sat, 10 Jul 2010 14:17:31 +0300") User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.50 (gnu/linux) X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:128095 Archived-At: >> Is there a compelling reason to still use yank/kill, instead of copy/cut/paste? > From the Emacs manual: Maybe we should make a concerted effort to change the terminology. If someone could go through the manual and docstrings to replace yank=>paste (and kill => cut|copy), and also find new names for variables, functions, and commands (which will need aliases so both the new and old names work), that would be a good start. I'd be happy to review such a patch. >> Why do we call the cursor the point? > Because point is not the cursor. The cursor only shows the position > of point in the visible windows (and on character terminals, only in > the single selected window). We still need a term for the ``current > position in the buffer''. I'm not sure that's a good reason: most other applications don't bother with this distinction, they just call both concepts "cursor" and then rely on context to disambiguate. So here as well, I'd be willing to entertain the idea of changing terminology if someone were to send a patch for it. >> These relics of old terminology should be updated to the accepted modern >> variants to make the documentation is more accessible for emacs newbies. > And then they will be queuing up to start using Emacs, no doubt. The idea (for me anyway) is not to lure new users (I have given up the hope to understand what they need/want a lot time ago), but just to make Emacs better. And following standards (be they protocols, libraries, terminology, behavior) is generally a good thing. So the only reason not to follow standards is when we have a better story. In the case of yank/paste and point/cursor, I don't think our story is that much better: it's more a historical accident. Changing such "fundamental" things might not be terribly easy given the fact that Emacs's names have real effects on behavior (since users refer to them in their .emacs, you can call them via M-x, etc...) but that doesn't mean that they're features of which we need to be proud (not that we should be ashamed of it, either of course: it's nice to remember that had those things before they became standard). Stefan