bug#19564: 24.4; eieio backward compatibility

bug#19564: 24.4; eieio backward compatibility

[Thierry Volpiatto]

Hi,

today I have fixed in helm an eieio error according to this
bugreport:

http://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi/bugreport.cgi?bug=19552

Following Stefan advice, I have added a defalias:

(unless (fboundp 'class-slot-initarg)
  (defalias 'class-slot-initarg 'eieio--class-slot-initarg))

It was working fine, but after upgrading again emacs-25, it seems eieio
raise another error:

When I try to compile helm I have:

Error: Wrong type argument: eieio--class-p, helm-locate-source

@Stefan Can you clarify what do we have to do actually to make eieio
backward compatible or if nothing have to be done on our side (external
developers) can you please fix this issue.

Thanks.




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bug#19564: 24.4; eieio backward compatibility

[Stefan Monnier]

> @Stefan Can you clarify what do we have to do actually to make eieio
> backward compatible

I'm still debugging the problem.


        Stefan

bug#19564: 24.4; eieio backward compatibility

[Stefan Monnier]

> (unless (fboundp 'class-slot-initarg)
>   (defalias 'class-slot-initarg 'eieio--class-slot-initarg))

BTW, can you explain why helm needs class-slot-initarg?


        Stefan "AFAICT, there's no such function in CLOS"

bug#19564: 24.4; eieio backward compatibility

[Thierry Volpiatto]

Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> writes:

>> @Stefan Can you clarify what do we have to do actually to make eieio
>> backward compatible
>
> I'm still debugging the problem.

Great, thanks Stefan.

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bug#19564: 24.4; eieio backward compatibility

[Thierry Volpiatto]

Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> writes:

>> (unless (fboundp 'class-slot-initarg)
>>   (defalias 'class-slot-initarg 'eieio--class-slot-initarg))
>
> BTW, can you explain why helm needs class-slot-initarg?

It is used in helm--create-source.

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bug#19564: 24.4; eieio backward compatibility

[Dmitry Gutov]

On 01/12/2015 08:58 AM, Thierry Volpiatto wrote:

>> BTW, can you explain why helm needs class-slot-initarg?
>
> It is used in helm--create-source.

Could you explain how it's used?

bug#19564: 24.4; eieio backward compatibility

[Thierry Volpiatto]

Dmitry Gutov <dgutov@yandex.ru> writes:

> On 01/12/2015 08:58 AM, Thierry Volpiatto wrote:
>
>>> BTW, can you explain why helm needs class-slot-initarg?
>>
>> It is used in helm--create-source.
>
> Could you explain how it's used?

It is used like this:

(class-slot-initarg class s)

where class is an object-class I get with (object-class source) and
source is a class instance.

`s' is a slot I get looping into (object-slots object) where object is a
class instance.

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bug#19564: 24.4; eieio backward compatibility

[Stefan Monnier]

>>> (unless (fboundp 'class-slot-initarg)
>>> (defalias 'class-slot-initarg 'eieio--class-slot-initarg))
>> BTW, can you explain why helm needs class-slot-initarg?
> It is used in helm--create-source.

That doesn't explain to me *why* it needs it.
Why does Helm need to know the initarg of a slot?


        Stefan

bug#19564: 24.4; eieio backward compatibility

[Thierry Volpiatto]

For your info here the link on helm about this issue:

https://github.com/emacs-helm/helm/issues/815

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bug#19564: 24.4; eieio backward compatibility

[Thierry Volpiatto]

Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> writes:

>>>> (unless (fboundp 'class-slot-initarg)
>>>> (defalias 'class-slot-initarg 'eieio--class-slot-initarg))
>>> BTW, can you explain why helm needs class-slot-initarg?
>> It is used in helm--create-source.
>
> That doesn't explain to me *why* it needs it.
> Why does Helm need to know the initarg of a slot?

Forget again to CC so I resend.

I could get rid of class-slot-initarg and now the bug is fixed in helm.
The problem is not solved though if some old external program use this.

There is also a problem now with compiled files, emacs-24.4 compiled
files are not compatibles with emacs-25 compiled files and vice-versa.

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bug#19564: 24.4; eieio backward compatibility

[Ted Zlatanov]

On Tue, 13 Jan 2015 13:36:20 +0100 Thierry Volpiatto <thierry.volpiatto@gmail.com> wrote: 

TV> There is also a problem now with compiled files, emacs-24.4 compiled
TV> files are not compatibles with emacs-25 compiled files and vice-versa.

Forgive my ignorance: is that compatibility guaranteed or beneficial?

Ted

bug#19564: 24.4; eieio backward compatibility

[Thierry Volpiatto]

Ted Zlatanov <tzz@lifelogs.com> writes:

> On Tue, 13 Jan 2015 13:36:20 +0100 Thierry Volpiatto <thierry.volpiatto@gmail.com> wrote: 
>
> TV> There is also a problem now with compiled files, emacs-24.4 compiled
> TV> files are not compatibles with emacs-25 compiled files and vice-versa.
>
> Forgive my ignorance: is that compatibility guaranteed or beneficial?

No, but that's mean that now with these recent changes all people using
helm will have errors in their helm packages when switching
emacs-version until they reinstall all;
And for sure they will not reinstall and I expect tons of bugreport in next
weeks... (I crossfingers hoping I am wrong)
 
-- 
Thierry
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bug#19564: 24.4; eieio backward compatibility

[Dmitry Gutov]

On 01/13/2015 05:50 PM, Thierry Volpiatto wrote:
> No, but that's mean that now with these recent changes all people using
> helm will have errors in their helm packages when switching
> emacs-version until they reinstall all;

That's not ideal, but it's happened with some previous releases, too.

bug#19564: 24.4; eieio backward compatibility

[Ted Zlatanov]

On Tue, 13 Jan 2015 15:50:48 +0100 Thierry Volpiatto <thierry.volpiatto@gmail.com> wrote: 

TV> Ted Zlatanov <tzz@lifelogs.com> writes:

>> On Tue, 13 Jan 2015 13:36:20 +0100 Thierry Volpiatto <thierry.volpiatto@gmail.com> wrote: 
>> 
TV> There is also a problem now with compiled files, emacs-24.4 compiled
TV> files are not compatibles with emacs-25 compiled files and vice-versa.
>> 
>> Forgive my ignorance: is that compatibility guaranteed or beneficial?

TV> No, but that's mean that now with these recent changes all people using
TV> helm will have errors in their helm packages when switching
TV> emacs-version until they reinstall all;
TV> And for sure they will not reinstall and I expect tons of bugreport in next
TV> weeks... (I crossfingers hoping I am wrong)

Maybe Emacs needs a shell-level way to recompile all or some installed packages?

Ted

bug#19564: 24.4; eieio backward compatibility

[Thierry Volpiatto]

Dmitry Gutov <dgutov@yandex.ru> writes:

> On 01/13/2015 05:50 PM, Thierry Volpiatto wrote:
>> No, but that's mean that now with these recent changes all people using
>> helm will have errors in their helm packages when switching
>> emacs-version until they reinstall all;
>
> That's not ideal, but it's happened with some previous releases, too.

Indeed yes.

-- 
Thierry
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bug#19564: 24.4; eieio backward compatibility

[Ivan Shmakov]

>>>>> "TZ" == Ted Zlatanov <tzz@lifelogs.com> writes:
>>>>> On Tue, 13 Jan 2015 15:50:48 +0100 Thierry Volpiatto wrote:
>>>>> Ted Zlatanov <tzz@lifelogs.com> writes:

[…]

 TZ> Forgive my ignorance: is that compatibility guaranteed or
 TZ> beneficial?

 TV> No, but that's mean that now with these recent changes all people
 TV> using helm will have errors in their helm packages when switching
 TV> emacs-version until they reinstall all; And for sure they will not
 TV> reinstall and I expect tons of bugreport in next weeks... (I
 TV> crossfingers hoping I am wrong)

 TZ> Maybe Emacs needs a shell-level way to recompile all or some
 TZ> installed packages?

	The approach used in Debian is that the Debian “binary” packages
	contain only the source code (.el), and the respective
	byte-compiled (.elc) files are produced at the installation
	time, – for /each/ of the installed Emacs versions.

	So, when, say, gnugo.el is installed, in addition to
	/usr/share/emacs/site-lisp/gnugo.el, the following files may
	also appear on the filesystem (depending on the versions of
	Emacs installed on the system):

/usr/share/emacs25/site-lisp/gnugo.elc
/usr/share/emacs24/site-lisp/gnugo.elc
/usr/share/emacs23/site-lisp/gnugo.elc
…

	I’m not sure whether Emacs itself handles it well when it comes
	to, say, C-h f.  And frankly, for backup purposes, I’d rather
	prefer all that to go under /var/cache instead.  (And the same
	for __pycache__, etc.)

-- 
FSF associate member #7257  http://boycottsystemd.org/  … 3013 B6A0 230E 334A

bug#19564: 24.4; eieio backward compatibility

[Stefan Monnier]

>> That doesn't explain to me *why* it needs it.
>> Why does Helm need to know the initarg of a slot?
> Helm needs to know the value of each slot in class to convert it to
> alist.

But the initarg is not the slot, so that doesn't explain why you need
the initargs?

> But well I don't see the problem, class-slot-initarg exists and I just
> want to use it, why should I avoid using it ?

As exlained in bug#19552, EIEIO's use of namespaces and
internal/external definitions was terribly messy (and it's still far
from ideal), so you were left having to guess whether you were allowed
to use something.

> Is its use prohibited ? :-)

Well since it's not part of CLOS, I think it should be considered
internal to EIEIO's implementation, and hence I renamed it accordingly
with the "eieio--" prefix (and slightly changed its calling convention).

> I could get rid of class-slot-initarg and now the bug is fixed in helm.

Could you give me a quick description of what you replaced it with?

> The problem is not solved though if some old external program use this.

Indeed.  I can add an obsolete backward-compatible definition to handle
that, but I'd first like to better understand why it was used: maybe it
shouldn't be declared internal after all.

> There is also a problem now with compiled files, emacs-24.4 compiled
> files are not compatibles with emacs-25 compiled files and vice-versa.

Files compiled with Emacs-25 are indeed not expected to work on
Emacs-24, but the other way should work (tho some of the changes in
EIEIO aren't backward compatible at their core, but so far those seemed
not to affect existing .elc files), so if it doesn't please M-x
report-emacs-bug, so we can see if/how we can fix it.


        Stefan

bug#19564: 24.4; eieio backward compatibility

[Thierry Volpiatto]

Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> writes:

>>> That doesn't explain to me *why* it needs it.
>>> Why does Helm need to know the initarg of a slot?
>> Helm needs to know the value of each slot in class to convert it to
>> alist.
>
> But the initarg is not the slot, so that doesn't explain why you need
> the initargs?

The confusion comes that slot-value as documented should use the quoted
slot (i.e 'slot) and oref should use the keyword slot (i.e :slot).
As I was using oref in first place, I was converting the quoted slot to
the keyword slot (i.e 'slot => :slot) to pass it to oref, but since I
use slot-value this is no more needed and I can get rid of this
conversion with class-slot-initarg.
Note that it seems the documentation should be updated as slot-value
support both form for slot ('slot and :slot), and IIRC oref also support
both forms, but correct me if I am wrong, I am not sure about this one,
I will check.

> As exlained in bug#19552, EIEIO's use of namespaces and
> internal/external definitions was terribly messy (and it's still far
> from ideal), so you were left having to guess whether you were allowed
> to use something.

Yes I know, fixing all namespaces is good even if it create some
annoyances at first for us writing external packages.

> Indeed.  I can add an obsolete backward-compatible definition to handle
> that, but I'd first like to better understand why it was used: maybe it
> shouldn't be declared internal after all.

As explained above it was just used to convert 'slot to :slot but well,
as we can use slot-value... but one may want to use oref and use :slot,
so it needs a way to convert this (maybe there is something else though,
enlight me).

> Files compiled with Emacs-25 are indeed not expected to work on
> Emacs-24,

Yes you already told me this long time ago.

> but the other way should work

Yes but it doesn't.

> (tho some of the changes in EIEIO aren't backward compatible at their
> core, but so far those seemed not to affect existing .elc files), so
> if it doesn't please M-x report-emacs-bug, so we can see if/how we can
> fix it.

Ok I will in next bugreport.

Thanks for working on this.

-- 
Thierry
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bug#19564: 24.4; eieio backward compatibility

[Stefan Monnier]

> The confusion comes that slot-value as documented should use the quoted
> slot (i.e 'slot) and oref should use the keyword slot (i.e :slot).

I don't think so:

   (defmacro oref (obj slot)
     `(eieio-oref ,obj (quote ,slot)))
   (defalias 'slot-value 'eieio-oref)

They both accept the slot name (except that one needs it quoted and the
other doesn't) and the initarg name (as an alternative name for the
slot).

> Note that it seems the documentation should be updated as slot-value
> support both form for slot ('slot and :slot), and IIRC oref also support
> both forms, but correct me if I am wrong, I am not sure about this one,
> I will check.

Could be, indeed.  I haven't looked enough at EIEIO's own documentation.


        Stefan

bug#19564: 24.4; eieio backward compatibility

[Thierry Volpiatto]

Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> writes:

>> The confusion comes that slot-value as documented should use the quoted
>> slot (i.e 'slot) and oref should use the keyword slot (i.e :slot).
>
> I don't think so:
>
>    (defmacro oref (obj slot)
>      `(eieio-oref ,obj (quote ,slot)))
>    (defalias 'slot-value 'eieio-oref)
>
> They both accept the slot name (except that one needs it quoted and the
> other doesn't) and the initarg name (as an alternative name for the
> slot).

Yes right, I have ckecked too, thanks.

>> Note that it seems the documentation should be updated as slot-value
>> support both form for slot ('slot and :slot), and IIRC oref also support
>> both forms, but correct me if I am wrong, I am not sure about this one,
>> I will check.
>
> Could be, indeed.  I haven't looked enough at EIEIO's own documentation.

Probably it should be clarified:

(oref A :slot)
=> OK.
(oref A slot)
=> OK
(oref A 'slot)
=> Error: (wrong-type-argument symbolp (quote slot))
(slot-value A :slot)
=> OK
(slot-value A slot)
=> Symbol's value as variable is void: slot
(slot-value A 'slot)
=> OK

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bug#19564: 24.4; eieio backward compatibility

[Stefan Monnier]

> Probably it should be clarified:

I'd rather just obsolete `oref'.


        Stefan

bug#19564: 24.4; eieio backward compatibility

[Stefan Monnier]

>>> The confusion comes that slot-value as documented should use the quoted
>>> slot (i.e 'slot) and oref should use the keyword slot (i.e :slot).
>> 
>> I don't think so:
>> 
>> (defmacro oref (obj slot)
>> `(eieio-oref ,obj (quote ,slot)))
>> (defalias 'slot-value 'eieio-oref)
>> 
>> They both accept the slot name (except that one needs it quoted and the
>> other doesn't) and the initarg name (as an alternative name for the
>> slot).

> Yes right, I have ckecked too, thanks.

To get back to the original issue: is the conclusion that you indeed
just don't need to the functionality of class-slot-initarg, or would
that functionality be handy but you managed to work around it?


        Stefan

bug#19564: 24.4; eieio backward compatibility

[Stefan Monnier]

> They both accept the slot name (except that one needs it quoted and the
> other doesn't) and the initarg name (as an alternative name for the
> slot).

BTW, accepting the initarg instead of the slotname is actually an
extension of EIEIO: in CLOS you have to use the slot name when you call
`slot-value'.


        Stefan

bug#19564: 24.4; eieio backward compatibility

[Thierry Volpiatto]

Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> writes:

>>>> The confusion comes that slot-value as documented should use the quoted
>>>> slot (i.e 'slot) and oref should use the keyword slot (i.e :slot).
>>> 
>>> I don't think so:
>>> 
>>> (defmacro oref (obj slot)
>>> `(eieio-oref ,obj (quote ,slot)))
>>> (defalias 'slot-value 'eieio-oref)
>>> 
>>> They both accept the slot name (except that one needs it quoted and the
>>> other doesn't) and the initarg name (as an alternative name for the
>>> slot).
>
>> Yes right, I have ckecked too, thanks.
>
> To get back to the original issue: is the conclusion that you indeed
> just don't need to the functionality of class-slot-initarg,

Yes, now I use slot-value with no keyword arg for slot.

> or would that functionality be handy but you managed to work around
> it?

No probably you can make it internal.

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bug#19564: 24.4; eieio backward compatibility

[Thierry Volpiatto]

Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> writes:

>> Probably it should be clarified:
>
> I'd rather just obsolete `oref'.

Please don't, oref is also used in many places in many packages and we
will have again annoying warnings.

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bug#19564: 24.4; eieio backward compatibility

[Stefan Monnier]

>> or would that functionality be handy but you managed to work around
>> it?
> No probably you can make it internal.

OK thanks.


        Stefan

bug#19564: 24.4; eieio backward compatibility

[Stefan Monnier]

>>> Probably it should be clarified:
>> I'd rather just obsolete `oref'.
> Please don't, oref is also used in many places in many packages and we
> will have again annoying warnings.

Yes, I know it's used extensively, just like `oset' which should also
disappear.  They will have to go at some point, tho.  And those warnings
are trivial to fix in a backward compatible way, since `slot-value' has
always been provided by EIEIO as well.


        Stefan

bug#19564: 24.4; eieio backward compatibility

[Thierry Volpiatto]

Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> writes:

> Files compiled with Emacs-25 are indeed not expected to work on
> Emacs-24, but the other way should work (tho some of the changes in
> EIEIO aren't backward compatible at their core, but so far those seemed
> not to affect existing .elc files), so if it doesn't please M-x
> report-emacs-bug, so we can see if/how we can fix it.

Done.
bug#19625.

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