From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Stefan Monnier Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Changes for emacs 28 Date: Wed, 09 Sep 2020 12:05:54 -0400 Message-ID: References: <87y2lkb6kb.fsf@gmail.com> <9A4FA038-CCFD-45DF-8B57-E348AFF951D9@gmail.com> <87sgbsb0eb.fsf@gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="3906"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/28.0.50 (gnu/linux) Cc: Gregory Heytings , Yuan Fu , emacs-devel@gnu.org To: TEC Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Wed Sep 09 18:11:16 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1kG2gl-0000ss-Sk for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Wed, 09 Sep 2020 18:11:15 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:54614 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kG2gk-0004Jl-US for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Wed, 09 Sep 2020 12:11:14 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:51320) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kG2bi-00006M-3j for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 09 Sep 2020 12:06:02 -0400 Original-Received: from mailscanner.iro.umontreal.ca ([132.204.25.50]:51052) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kG2bf-0004ca-LL for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 09 Sep 2020 12:06:01 -0400 Original-Received: from pmg3.iro.umontreal.ca (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pmg3.iro.umontreal.ca (Proxmox) with ESMTP id 80370440F6E; Wed, 9 Sep 2020 12:05:58 -0400 (EDT) Original-Received: from mail01.iro.umontreal.ca (unknown [172.31.2.1]) by pmg3.iro.umontreal.ca (Proxmox) with ESMTP id A0969440F67; Wed, 9 Sep 2020 12:05:56 -0400 (EDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=iro.umontreal.ca; s=mail; t=1599667556; bh=5/v13JwkTihT1w8hzfVgOzSp3gd0lLr/GyznCD9Z0kI=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:References:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=Qfvt03q6hYLSpngLTaC0iEtap31TyUrbY2T5bxNtRn3RXT1bTd3QVoGMOZQJIwhaN wT3f8+HaoQWlpaP1REdEDgbAxA2OY2S10EBU4u5t+6CkESx2FrQof7GolgXv+P+Oau +MNEMbuZkFdnJpMP7vfxXL/dRqudwrD4SlaVw9FEzPPx88IVGKJxTFFGduBiyuFriq Kq9zXcO9imW326l21bsbThptO+GycWPfBYJ59tje6xNXeTMUJmd5opEphVZOmd9cee XxGlxQ6dGxKMh1A+hg9OTMyLOXkEHGksEYKAMQ4UmjEZosCJAArd2muPTxDDfRe04h NsrHNGtXb1UQA== Original-Received: from alfajor (unknown [45.72.232.131]) by mail01.iro.umontreal.ca (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 437831204F6; Wed, 9 Sep 2020 12:05:56 -0400 (EDT) In-Reply-To: <87sgbsb0eb.fsf@gmail.com> (TEC's message of "Wed, 09 Sep 2020 02:15:24 +0800") Received-SPF: pass client-ip=132.204.25.50; envelope-from=monnier@iro.umontreal.ca; helo=mailscanner.iro.umontreal.ca X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: First seen = 2020/09/09 11:10:42 X-ACL-Warn: Detected OS = Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Spam_score_int: -42 X-Spam_score: -4.3 X-Spam_bar: ---- X-Spam_report: (-4.3 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:254895 Archived-At: Thanks, TEC, I found it quite useful. Further comments and questions below. > * Org-mode, my ramp into Emacs pt.1 - vanilla > - I'd heard about Org-mode as a thing markdown + execution > - Maybe this could be better than Jupyter? > - However... I didn't like Spacemacs > - Removed Spacemacs > - Typed 'emacs' into a terminal So far so good. > - Oh, this looks old. Fair enough. I don't think we (Emacs community) are in a position to make it look "modern" and sexy. I know I'm not because my notion of "modern and sexy" is quite outmoded ;-) But "looks old" is usually not a deal breaker, just a negative first impression. > - Successfully opened a file > + Where are the line numbers? Interesting. It would never occur to me to expect line numbers in a text editor. When and why did line numbers become fashionable? [ My guess is something like "ever since shortscreens became the only option, creating a void in the horizontal space that needed filling" ;-) ] I don't oppose enabling line numbers by default, but I do find line numbers to be an awful waste of valuable screen real estate. > + Why aren't I given much information on the file Could you be more specific in terms of the particular information that you felt Emacs failed to give (and maybe how you expected it to be given)? > + Where's the completion, the linting, etc. Do I understand you right that you expected company+eglot+flymake to be enabled (and configured) by default? I personally find this to be the most glaring concrete problem in Emacs nowadays. > - Tried to execute a command interactively (forget which command) > + Typed M-x > + Wait, this is just a text box > + I don't know commands off by heart! > + I want to be able to type key terms and see options! How much of this would be satisfied by icomplete-mode together with the `substring` completion-style (which would be a smaller change to the UI than something like helm-M-x or counsel-M-x). > - Having an initialisation=E2=80=A0 file, well commented such that *witho= ut knowing > anything about Emacs* I could have Emacs be set up such that I could > actually try it with familiar tasks and not be underwhelmed, or have > to deal with sudden troubleshooting Maybe we could have a "default init file" (consisting of nothing but commented out code snippets, accompanied by actual comments explaining them)? > =E2=80=A0The important bit about this file is that it let me declare wh= ich > bundles of functionality I want easily, and without having to parse > much unfamiliar lisp (both Spacemacs and Vanilla fail in this regard, > but in different ways). Hmm... a "default init file" would still use "unfamiliar Lisp", I'm afraid. > - Having good 'discoverability enhancements' used by default > - counsel for M-x IIUC this is similar to enabling icomplete-vertical and icomplete-show-matches-on-no-input, and maybe using a regexp completion style? > - Used Discord for it's community, a recent chat-app which I recognised > (I'm still warming up to mailing lists). Definitely a non-starter since it's proprietary. There are obviously acceptable alternatives. I think an important aspect is to find a communication medium that can be used from Emacs. IRC and Email do satisfy this criteria. Whenever I have to write text outside Emacs I feel hampered. Stefan