From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Stefan Monnier Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Change default behavior of some commands that act on region? Date: Sat, 22 May 2021 10:33:57 -0400 Message-ID: References: <83sg2ekg93.fsf@gnu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="23498"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/28.0.50 (gnu/linux) Cc: drew.adams@oracle.com, emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Eli Zaretskii Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Sat May 22 16:34:40 2021 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1lkSi7-0005tj-Qf for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sat, 22 May 2021 16:34:39 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:44198 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1lkSi6-0007jI-Q3 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sat, 22 May 2021 10:34:38 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:39382) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1lkShY-00074V-Sf for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 22 May 2021 10:34:05 -0400 Original-Received: from mailscanner.iro.umontreal.ca ([132.204.25.50]:37043) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1lkShV-0008Bq-7e; Sat, 22 May 2021 10:34:04 -0400 Original-Received: from pmg3.iro.umontreal.ca (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pmg3.iro.umontreal.ca (Proxmox) with ESMTP id 231D1441102; Sat, 22 May 2021 10:34:00 -0400 (EDT) Original-Received: from mail01.iro.umontreal.ca (unknown [172.31.2.1]) by pmg3.iro.umontreal.ca (Proxmox) with ESMTP id C29EB4410FC; Sat, 22 May 2021 10:33:58 -0400 (EDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=iro.umontreal.ca; s=mail; t=1621694038; bh=zDVJtBPYIRlCUSdqaufw7brmW211Bb/p3X0c06ZTlpw=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:References:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=EZdFcDjdxfBXO1EICo3TXOC4g3YByeXymyK/WCJoR1PKRgFr8D9u7E17I/clVZuQL /9KFsAa4v4whY5GnakRnGX7CptLiP79NTj0rtZzLYAGE6zYF3xNiKRACz7GiOXhsrr tnQR4+XD+7S4wsjgOCM/i8VAaV88awaQQyjDV9qFycqWD0X2m6+66MlKeGGH25Uz5m f3BrwbPT4MSxme7d24UQs+9NUIveAM9e7gc/rBY6AVvgK7lDUr5sKIY9UL3Ao770kj R8A52uQ3rgAaZclyj/f0oMfnxZmHkaE19T73ks5o8ncz/v1+LN0suK5ooRwksYxe78 engWCkM+BnVOQ== Original-Received: from alfajor (76-10-140-76.dsl.teksavvy.com [76.10.140.76]) by mail01.iro.umontreal.ca (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 77C32120207; Sat, 22 May 2021 10:33:58 -0400 (EDT) In-Reply-To: <83sg2ekg93.fsf@gnu.org> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Sat, 22 May 2021 17:14:16 +0300") Received-SPF: pass client-ip=132.204.25.50; envelope-from=monnier@iro.umontreal.ca; helo=mailscanner.iro.umontreal.ca X-Spam_score_int: -42 X-Spam_score: -4.3 X-Spam_bar: ---- X-Spam_report: (-4.3 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:269614 Archived-At: >> I see two sub-issues to this: >> >> 1- Breaking long-standing behavior. I'll let others figure out how to >> minimize this (e.g. by testing for `transient-mark-mode` or something). >> >> 2- If we take a step back, I think we'll see there's a "better optimum" >> in this area when `transient-mark-mode` is in use. E.g. we could >> combine `downcase-word` and `downcase-region` into a single command >> which will do either of the two depending on `use-region-p`. > > To remind us, this was triggered by someone's mistaken keypress. I > don't think we should use such mistakes to justify significant changes > in long-established behavior. I can easily come up with other > examples where mistakenly holding, e.g., the Ctrl key makes an > absolute mess of my editing (e.g., 's' becomes C-s, and the rest of > what I type more-or-less disappears into the void). That doesn't mean > we should make over-reaching changes to save me from myself. That way > lies madness, IMO. We should stop before it's too late. I think you're referring to sub-issue (1) above. That doesn't preclude improving our UI as in (2) above, which would free up `C-x C-l` for those users who prefer to use "transient-mark-mode + M-l". Stefan