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From: Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca>
To: Daniel Brooks <db48x@db48x.net>
Cc: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org>,
	 cpitclaudel@gmail.com, emacs-devel@gnu.org,  stefan@marxist.se,
	 yuri.v.khan@gmail.com
Subject: Re: Unicode confusables and reordering characters considered harmful,  a simple solution
Date: Thu, 04 Nov 2021 15:05:13 -0400	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <jwvee7voj9l.fsf-monnier+emacs@gnu.org> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <87v918qx37.fsf@db48x.net> (Daniel Brooks's message of "Wed, 03 Nov 2021 23:00:28 -0700")

> However, your suggestion of highlighting the text affected by the bidi
> override characters while not actually showing those characters visibly
> is not something that I would care to use. It shows that there may be a
> problem without showing what the cause is. The cause is the presense of
> certain characters, and I must be able to see those characters in order
> to fix the problem, or even to judge whether there is a problem at
> all.

I don't think it's the case.

AFAIK there are 3 steps:
1- Become aware of the presence of something suspicious, i.e. a chunk of
   text that may not mean what you think.
2- Be able to confirm whether this is what it looks like or not.
3- Find the root cause.

Making the special control chars more visible can help at step 3 (tho
not in all cases since the problem can occur without using any of those
chars, as shown in my example code), but it's definitely not necessary
for step 1 (where highlighting the text as Eli suggest might be more
useful) nor for step 2 (where moving the cursor across the text is all
it takes to figure out what it really means).

Really, this is just another case of the "confusables": situations where
different sequences of bytes can result in the exact same display (or
maybe not 100% identical, but sufficiently similar that the untrained
eye won't notice the difference) yet be treated differently by
our tools.

The main problem I see is that the definition of "normal" and "abnormal"
depends on the programming language and even potentially to the human
reading the text as well.

For example, Imagine that the uppercase text below are written in
a script&language that's RTL:

My previous example had

    myfun (ARG1, ARG2)

where the rendering displayed ARG2 to the left or ARG1, making it
(presumably) confusing to the reader.  But if the code says:

    days = [MONDAY, TUESDAY, WEDNESDAY, THURSDAY, FRIDAY, SATURDAY, SUNDAY]

Which would be more confusing?  To have first element displayed on the
left or to have it displayed on the right?
I think the answer strongly depends on the past experience of the
reader, so there's a human factor at play.


        Stefan




  parent reply	other threads:[~2021-11-04 19:05 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 172+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2021-11-02 12:57 Unicode confusables and reordering characters considered harmful Vasilij Schneidermann
2021-11-02 13:18 ` Po Lu
2021-11-02 13:54   ` Uwe Brauer
2021-11-02 14:53     ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-11-02 15:16       ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-11-02 15:21         ` Uwe Brauer
2021-11-02 16:24       ` Clément Pit-Claudel
2021-11-02 16:47         ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-11-02 17:01           ` Stefan Kangas
2021-11-02 17:10             ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-11-02 18:43               ` Stefan Kangas
2021-11-02 18:49                 ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-11-02 19:12                   ` Stefan Monnier
2021-11-02 19:36                     ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-11-02 19:47                       ` Stefan Monnier
2021-11-02 19:51                         ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-11-02 21:28                           ` Unicode confusables and reordering characters considered harmful, a simple solution Daniel Brooks
2021-11-03 13:30                             ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-11-03 17:41                             ` Yuri Khan
2021-11-03 17:56                               ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-11-03 18:20                                 ` Juri Linkov
2021-11-03 19:02                                   ` Gregory Heytings
2021-11-03 19:46                                     ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-11-03 19:58                                       ` Yuri Khan
2021-11-03 20:21                                       ` Gregory Heytings
2021-11-03 20:31                                         ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-11-03 21:16                                           ` Gregory Heytings
2021-11-04  7:16                                             ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-11-04  9:06                                               ` Gregory Heytings
2021-11-04  9:19                                                 ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-11-04  9:48                                                   ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-11-04  8:44                                     ` Juri Linkov
2021-11-03 18:45                                 ` Yuri Khan
2021-11-03 19:09                                   ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-11-03 19:35                                     ` Yuri Khan
2021-11-03 20:01                                       ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-11-03 20:45                                         ` Gregory Heytings
2021-11-03 20:53                                           ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-11-03 21:23                                             ` Gregory Heytings
2021-11-04  6:58                                               ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-11-04  8:53                                                 ` Gregory Heytings
2021-11-04  9:15                                                   ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-11-03 19:54                                     ` Daniel Brooks
2021-11-03 20:08                                       ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-11-04  6:00                                         ` Daniel Brooks
2021-11-04  7:44                                           ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-11-04  9:14                                             ` Gregory Heytings
2021-11-04  9:45                                               ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-11-04 10:41                                                 ` Gregory Heytings
2021-11-04 11:03                                                   ` Po Lu
2021-11-04 11:27                                                     ` Gregory Heytings
2021-11-04 11:20                                                   ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-11-04 11:34                                                     ` Gregory Heytings
2021-11-04 13:25                                                       ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-11-04 14:10                                                         ` Gregory Heytings
2021-11-04 16:50                                                           ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-11-04 17:04                                                             ` Gregory Heytings
2021-11-04 19:16                                                           ` Stefan Monnier
2021-11-05 23:31                                                             ` Gregory Heytings
2021-11-06  7:25                                                               ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-11-04 19:22                                                           ` Stefan Monnier
2021-11-04 19:55                                                             ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-11-05 23:32                                                             ` Gregory Heytings
2021-11-04 19:08                                                     ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-11-04 20:00                                                       ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-11-05  2:23                                             ` Daniel Brooks
2021-11-05  3:52                                               ` Stefan Kangas
2021-11-05  5:21                                                 ` code annotations Daniel Brooks
2021-11-05  5:53                                                   ` Stefan Kangas
2021-11-05  5:23                                                 ` Unicode confusables and reordering characters considered harmful, a simple solution Daniel Brooks
2021-11-05  6:13                                                 ` Po Lu
2021-11-05  7:37                                                 ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-11-05  8:00                                                   ` Stefan Kangas
2021-11-05  8:07                                                     ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-11-05  9:58                                                       ` Stefan Kangas
2021-11-05 12:12                                                         ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-11-05 13:08                                                           ` Stefan Kangas
2021-11-05 14:19                                                             ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-11-05 23:33                                                               ` Gregory Heytings
2021-11-06  0:54                                                                 ` Daniel Brooks
2021-11-06 10:56                                                                   ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-11-06 10:48                                                                 ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-11-08 19:58                                                                   ` Gregory Heytings
2021-11-08 20:27                                                                     ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-11-08 21:59                                                                       ` Stefan Monnier
2021-11-09  3:28                                                                         ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-11-06 13:58                                                               ` Benjamin Riefenstahl
2021-11-06 15:34                                                                 ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-11-06 17:09                                                                   ` Benjamin Riefenstahl
2021-11-06 17:35                                                                     ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-11-05  8:09                                               ` tomas
2021-11-06  1:09                                                 ` Daniel Brooks
2021-11-05  8:31                                               ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-11-05  9:34                                                 ` Juri Linkov
2021-11-04 19:05                                           ` Stefan Monnier [this message]
2021-11-03 21:13                                 ` Daniel Brooks
2021-11-04  6:52                                   ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-11-02 20:18                       ` Unicode confusables and reordering characters considered harmful Tim Cross
2021-11-03  0:28                     ` Gregory Heytings
2021-11-03  1:07                       ` Stefan Monnier
2021-11-03  1:59                         ` Daniel Brooks
2021-11-03 13:35                           ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-11-03  9:59                         ` Gregory Heytings
2021-11-03 11:19                           ` Stefan Kangas
2021-11-03 11:31                             ` Gregory Heytings
2021-11-03 12:20                               ` Stefan Monnier
2021-11-03 12:41                                 ` tomas
2021-11-03 13:15                                   ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-11-03 14:46                                     ` tomas
2021-11-03 17:13                                       ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-11-03 17:34                                         ` tomas
2021-11-03 13:46                                 ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-11-03 13:45                               ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-11-03 13:44                             ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-11-03 14:29                               ` Gregory Heytings
2021-11-03 14:37                                 ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-11-03 16:01                                   ` Gregory Heytings
2021-11-03 17:44                                     ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-11-03 17:53                                       ` Gregory Heytings
2021-11-03 11:29                           ` Andreas Schwab
2021-11-03 18:47                             ` Stefan Monnier
2021-11-03 18:52                               ` Yuri Khan
2021-11-03 19:19                                 ` Stefan Monnier
2021-11-03 19:28                               ` Gregory Heytings
2021-11-03 19:32                                 ` Stefan Monnier
2021-11-03 19:41                                   ` Yuri Khan
2021-11-03 20:12                                   ` Gregory Heytings
2021-11-03 22:03                                     ` Gregory Heytings
2021-11-04  8:50                                       ` Gregory Heytings
2021-11-03 19:51                                 ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-11-03 19:30                               ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-11-03 19:34                                 ` Andreas Schwab
2021-11-03 19:54                                   ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-11-03 13:37                           ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-11-03 18:53                             ` Manuel Giraud
2021-11-03 19:36                               ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-11-03 21:15                                 ` Manuel Giraud
2021-11-04  6:56                                   ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-11-04 19:04                                     ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-11-03 13:33                         ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-11-03 13:31                       ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-11-02 19:26                   ` Stefan Kangas
2021-11-02 19:44                     ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-11-02 19:49                     ` Stefan Monnier
2021-11-02 18:16           ` Clément Pit-Claudel
2021-11-02 18:37             ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-11-02 19:17         ` Yuri Khan
2021-11-02 19:37           ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-11-02 17:24       ` [authors: default bidi-display-reordering is set to t] (was: Unicode confusables and reordering characters considered harmful) Uwe Brauer
2021-11-02 17:37         ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-11-02 14:31   ` Unicode confusables and reordering characters considered harmful Eli Zaretskii
2021-11-02 15:13     ` Uwe Brauer
2021-11-02 13:42 ` tomas
2021-11-02 14:57   ` Stefan Kangas
2021-11-02 14:30 ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-11-02 14:43 ` Clément Pit-Claudel
2021-11-03 15:07   ` Reini Urban
2021-11-03 15:43     ` Stefan Monnier
2021-11-04  7:50       ` Reini Urban
2021-11-04  8:21         ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-11-03 17:24     ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-11-02 14:57 ` Stefan Kangas
2021-11-05 18:53 ` Unicode confusables " Vasilij Schneidermann
2021-11-05 20:03   ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-11-06 11:56     ` Vasilij Schneidermann
2021-11-06 12:20       ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-11-06 13:10         ` Vasilij Schneidermann
2021-11-06 13:29           ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-11-05 21:36   ` Stefan Monnier
2021-11-10 15:47 ` Unicode confusables and reordering characters " Dmitry Gutov
2021-11-10 17:03   ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-11-10 17:15     ` Dmitry Gutov

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