From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Stefan Monnier via "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors" Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.bugs Subject: bug#52063: 28.0.60; Confusing presentation of lambda Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2021 12:58:35 -0500 Message-ID: References: <83czmqaegb.fsf@gnu.org> <87r1b5u1cl.fsf@gnus.org> <83pmqp8vps.fsf@gnu.org> <87v90ge5rc.fsf@gnus.org> <87a6hr9k79.fsf@gnus.org> <87a6hruk4u.fsf@gnus.org> <875ysfujya.fsf@gnus.org> <87ee73t10k.fsf@gnus.org> <87tufxr8cc.fsf@gnus.org> <87r1az12zy.fsf@gnus.org> Reply-To: Stefan Monnier Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="16158"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/28.0.50 (gnu/linux) Cc: Philipp Stephani , Filipp Gunbin , 52063@debbugs.gnu.org To: Lars Ingebrigtsen Original-X-From: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Mon Nov 29 19:06:13 2021 Return-path: Envelope-to: geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1mrl2b-0003xP-Gx for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org; Mon, 29 Nov 2021 19:06:13 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:33682 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mrl2a-0006eT-Ji for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org; Mon, 29 Nov 2021 13:06:12 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:39688) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mrkve-0007eF-OS for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Mon, 29 Nov 2021 12:59:02 -0500 Original-Received: from debbugs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.43]:55951) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mrkve-0007P0-GO for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Mon, 29 Nov 2021 12:59:02 -0500 Original-Received: from Debian-debbugs by debbugs.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mrkve-0004sg-Fq for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Mon, 29 Nov 2021 12:59:02 -0500 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Resent-From: Stefan Monnier Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2021 17:59:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 52063 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs Original-Received: via spool by 52063-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B52063.163820872518736 (code B ref 52063); Mon, 29 Nov 2021 17:59:02 +0000 Original-Received: (at 52063) by debbugs.gnu.org; 29 Nov 2021 17:58:45 +0000 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:39264 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mrkvN-0004s7-1z for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 29 Nov 2021 12:58:45 -0500 Original-Received: from mailscanner.iro.umontreal.ca ([132.204.25.50]:19563) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mrkvL-0004rv-Mq for 52063@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 29 Nov 2021 12:58:44 -0500 Original-Received: from pmg2.iro.umontreal.ca (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by pmg2.iro.umontreal.ca (Proxmox) with ESMTP id 95CA2805F9; Mon, 29 Nov 2021 12:58:37 -0500 (EST) Original-Received: from mail01.iro.umontreal.ca (unknown [172.31.2.1]) by pmg2.iro.umontreal.ca (Proxmox) with ESMTP id 213DF80169; Mon, 29 Nov 2021 12:58:36 -0500 (EST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=iro.umontreal.ca; s=mail; t=1638208716; bh=geOeaPt5KtkUQagxhb3cfan73T+AOOvGxUZMUAxsb9M=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:References:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=P84fcpUZHlvWSDM/1gwl++/4zb9MfXz5VrQR10F5hBaf/vs58uNntePH1/oERkouY +grKjor8LGkaGi0ab3jO4AsB5nBHi0/JBo2G/PW/WyDQtQK8EnUpyyYrBiwGvgC/1i iSzvXTaiBSNGIRYDnbn3QRdVBU2Xr5+Ftqdf6pLALT9Y0WRu1Tx1Y7XQ2xd76iFBgT Py9pb6krN3AnY3S7f3BdR1L4Q2WF+jlpOQaasud4cs/O+4PHyyu1Sg8GnaA6N7Zh/k 70lgOCw2mrstRcjIgxBVK+V5vR+jED3i9a7WcPqlnfSMwXLIGNBsWVD4Fhj8fBFOnK kM3IGrO+D9mFQ== Original-Received: from alfajor (lechon.iro.umontreal.ca [132.204.27.242]) by mail01.iro.umontreal.ca (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 10920120476; Mon, 29 Nov 2021 12:58:36 -0500 (EST) In-Reply-To: <87r1az12zy.fsf@gnus.org> (Lars Ingebrigtsen's message of "Mon, 29 Nov 2021 14:54:25 +0100") X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list X-BeenThere: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org List-Id: "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "bug-gnu-emacs" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.bugs:221053 Archived-At: > My point is that if we're extending the `lambda' syntax, we might as > well do it in a way that allows further easy expansions in the future. And my point is that we're not discussing the syntax of `lambda` but the representation of function values. [ I agree with the above, BTW. I just don't think it is relevant to the problem at hand. ] >> Also, I think it's good if the source syntax is a bit different from the >> function value syntax: we want the two to be *similar* so the function >> value feels familiar and can intuitively be understood, but we also want >> to make it clear that we're looking at something >> fundamentally different. >> That's why I'd favor a representation of the form #[...] or #<...> or ... > Hm, right... I think I'm in favour of demystifying, not further > mystifying things for the users. Currently the vast majority of functions in Emacs's heap (i.e. function *values*) get printed either as a symbol or as #[...] or as #. The (lambda ...) and (closure ...) cases are in the minority and I think it would be good to try and eliminate these cases as much as possible (we'll probably have to keep supporting it for backward compatibility, but we can stop generating them ourselves). Stefan