From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Stefan Monnier Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: pkg-autoloads.el vs. pkg-loaddefs.el Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2024 16:12:42 -0400 Message-ID: References: <87y1adrria.fsf@localhost> <87o77zbs4j.fsf@localhost> <871q4us0l9.fsf@localhost> <87msniqhel.fsf@localhost> <87h6dqqaqp.fsf@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="2982"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Ihor Radchenko Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Tue Jun 18 22:13:51 2024 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1sJfDC-0000YJ-2B for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Tue, 18 Jun 2024 22:13:50 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1sJfCM-00027S-Hj; Tue, 18 Jun 2024 16:12:58 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1sJfCH-00024p-Qb for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 18 Jun 2024 16:12:54 -0400 Original-Received: from mailscanner.iro.umontreal.ca ([132.204.25.50]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1sJfCG-0000dc-BC for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 18 Jun 2024 16:12:53 -0400 Original-Received: from pmg2.iro.umontreal.ca (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by pmg2.iro.umontreal.ca (Proxmox) with ESMTP id 8A64D809AC; Tue, 18 Jun 2024 16:12:50 -0400 (EDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=iro.umontreal.ca; s=mail; t=1718741569; bh=dRJv84B1UL+qH51ZzLJdx6Cp9goVB+VgtCczmEC0jvQ=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:Date:From; b=Q0YtnkseDgOBR9Y20GfcugAqnAoYgLlXrX6wWd9PrQGdc81EJv0MwRMhS9c+gKk1a 5FJbiyBlLMBvTReWbIi64Eutoyp0mpiKfF9curv7KPE/4IZ3g/0lGMS5j5ZWBvwITZ jIT6eivgjz8Bfs/2NKxBHDluE+Y5oVOxSs081f4KM19g1C+WaNhkskH8PdozPcTKIi MRCEwQAl5KTMeshlkAoS9xYM8IXH8fx1wtQTP39bKawcK27ESyuf5tDj0XabZ+eUcM 699ahfBLqxQbmxZYfC7iQVMqmBKGMFpyirbvDvowILnmJOWnytZ4UG+ovY7fJ2/efP aOe5sfD31Tvxw== Original-Received: from mail01.iro.umontreal.ca (unknown [172.31.2.1]) by pmg2.iro.umontreal.ca (Proxmox) with ESMTP id 6D02D80882; Tue, 18 Jun 2024 16:12:49 -0400 (EDT) Original-Received: from lechazo (lechon.iro.umontreal.ca [132.204.27.242]) by mail01.iro.umontreal.ca (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 5D209120478; Tue, 18 Jun 2024 16:12:49 -0400 (EDT) In-Reply-To: <87h6dqqaqp.fsf@localhost> (Ihor Radchenko's message of "Tue, 18 Jun 2024 20:03:42 +0000") Received-SPF: pass client-ip=132.204.25.50; envelope-from=monnier@iro.umontreal.ca; helo=mailscanner.iro.umontreal.ca X-Spam_score_int: -42 X-Spam_score: -4.3 X-Spam_bar: ---- X-Spam_report: (-4.3 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:320274 Archived-At: > I'd assert more - most users are not aware about the intricacies we > are talking about here. That, I can definitely agree with. =F0=9F=99=82 >> Maybe we should provide some alternative for "late activation" which >> does pass the `reload` argument? > Maybe. Although I am afraid that having multiple ways to activate > packages will only confuse people who struggle from the problem most. I tend to agree. I think we should try and actively discourage users to get into such situations. I.e. focus on detecting the problem and report it to the user rather than patching it up. >> We don't do that by default in an effort to try and keep startup time >> under control and also because reloading is a hack which works only >> partly and can even have unpredictable effects, so it's really much >> better to try and avoid it in the first place. > May an approach like `require-with-check' be used here? Then, the > reloading only occurs when there is a potential mixing of package > versions. Could be, tho I'm not sure exactly what "an approach like `require-with-check`" would look like. Stefan