* Proposal: merge [S-tab] and [backtab]
@ 2010-08-02 4:22 Paul Griepentrog
2010-08-02 17:42 ` Leo
2010-08-02 18:09 ` Drew Adams
0 siblings, 2 replies; 7+ messages in thread
From: Paul Griepentrog @ 2010-08-02 4:22 UTC (permalink / raw
To: emacs-devel
Just a tidbit of computer evolution: the [backtab] key does not
exist on modern keyboards. Of course, Emacs uses this key in
several modes (grep, compile, erc, ...). So, in the place of
[backtab] within Emacs, [S-tab] is the conventional binding for a
poor man's backtab. For convenience, some terminals (X,
Windows, and recently: NextStep) translate the keypress of
[S-tab] into [backtab] and nobody is the wizer.
Unless... you want to bind [S-tab] in a mode. Then you find out
[S-tab] is NOT the key sequence you thought it was. The binding
worked on X and Windows, but not at the terminal (or another
platform which did not link [S-tab] to [backtab]). What
happened?! Well, so you bind [backtab] as well.
My proposal is to universally translate [S-tab] and [S-iso-tab]
into [backtab] across all terminals. At least then you can bind
[backtab] and know it will work across platforms and terminals.
Included in this proposal is removing obsolete bindings to
[S-tab] and [S-iso-tab] for modes within Emacs and updating the
documentation. I include [S-iso-tab] since it is yet another
abused synonym for [backtab].
Note: this change will NOT ADD or REMOVE any bindings. It is to
unify the keypresses of [S-tab], [S-iso-tab] to [backtab] where
they already exist.
I don't pretend to know the history of the keybindings or
specific terminals, but a uniform view of [S-tab] vs [backtab]
makes sense to me.
Thoughts?
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 7+ messages in thread
* Re: Proposal: merge [S-tab] and [backtab]
2010-08-02 4:22 Proposal: merge [S-tab] and [backtab] Paul Griepentrog
@ 2010-08-02 17:42 ` Leo
2010-08-02 18:09 ` Drew Adams
1 sibling, 0 replies; 7+ messages in thread
From: Leo @ 2010-08-02 17:42 UTC (permalink / raw
To: emacs-devel
On 2010-08-02 05:22 +0100, Paul Griepentrog wrote:
> Just a tidbit of computer evolution: the [backtab] key does not
> exist on modern keyboards. Of course, Emacs uses this key in
> several modes (grep, compile, erc, ...). So, in the place of
> [backtab] within Emacs, [S-tab] is the conventional binding for a
> poor man's backtab. For convenience, some terminals (X,
> Windows, and recently: NextStep) translate the keypress of
> [S-tab] into [backtab] and nobody is the wizer.
>
> Unless... you want to bind [S-tab] in a mode. Then you find out
> [S-tab] is NOT the key sequence you thought it was. The binding
> worked on X and Windows, but not at the terminal (or another
> platform which did not link [S-tab] to [backtab]). What
> happened?! Well, so you bind [backtab] as well.
>
> My proposal is to universally translate [S-tab] and [S-iso-tab]
> into [backtab] across all terminals. At least then you can bind
> [backtab] and know it will work across platforms and terminals.
> Included in this proposal is removing obsolete bindings to
> [S-tab] and [S-iso-tab] for modes within Emacs and updating the
> documentation. I include [S-iso-tab] since it is yet another
> abused synonym for [backtab].
>
> Note: this change will NOT ADD or REMOVE any bindings. It is to
> unify the keypresses of [S-tab], [S-iso-tab] to [backtab] where
> they already exist.
>
> I don't pretend to know the history of the keybindings or
> specific terminals, but a uniform view of [S-tab] vs [backtab]
> makes sense to me.
>
> Thoughts?
For example, eshell-cmpl-initialize has:
;; jww (1999-10-19): Will this work on anything but X?
(if (featurep 'xemacs)
(define-key eshell-mode-map [iso-left-tab] 'pcomplete-reverse)
(define-key eshell-mode-map [(shift iso-lefttab)] 'pcomplete-reverse)
(define-key eshell-mode-map [(shift control ?i)] 'pcomplete-reverse))
And yet it still fails on some systems.
Leo
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 7+ messages in thread
* RE: Proposal: merge [S-tab] and [backtab]
2010-08-02 4:22 Proposal: merge [S-tab] and [backtab] Paul Griepentrog
2010-08-02 17:42 ` Leo
@ 2010-08-02 18:09 ` Drew Adams
2010-08-02 20:11 ` Stefan Monnier
2010-08-03 6:27 ` Paul Griepentrog
1 sibling, 2 replies; 7+ messages in thread
From: Drew Adams @ 2010-08-02 18:09 UTC (permalink / raw
To: 'Paul Griepentrog', emacs-devel
> My proposal is to universally translate [S-tab] and [S-iso-tab]
> ...
> I include [S-iso-tab] since it is yet another
> abused synonym for [backtab].
FWIW -
I think I was the one who mentioned S-iso-tab (in the bug thread).
But I meant `S-iso-lefttab'.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 7+ messages in thread
* Re: Proposal: merge [S-tab] and [backtab]
2010-08-02 18:09 ` Drew Adams
@ 2010-08-02 20:11 ` Stefan Monnier
2010-08-02 20:15 ` Drew Adams
2010-08-02 20:27 ` Chad Brown
2010-08-03 6:27 ` Paul Griepentrog
1 sibling, 2 replies; 7+ messages in thread
From: Stefan Monnier @ 2010-08-02 20:11 UTC (permalink / raw
To: Drew Adams; +Cc: 'Paul Griepentrog', emacs-devel
> I think I was the one who mentioned S-iso-tab (in the bug thread).
> But I meant `S-iso-lefttab'.
BTW, could someone explain to me what is the iso-lefttab key?
What does it look like, where is it "typically" located?
Stefan
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 7+ messages in thread
* RE: Proposal: merge [S-tab] and [backtab]
2010-08-02 20:11 ` Stefan Monnier
@ 2010-08-02 20:15 ` Drew Adams
2010-08-02 20:27 ` Chad Brown
1 sibling, 0 replies; 7+ messages in thread
From: Drew Adams @ 2010-08-02 20:15 UTC (permalink / raw
To: 'Stefan Monnier'; +Cc: 'Paul Griepentrog', emacs-devel
> > I think I was the one who mentioned S-iso-tab (in the bug thread).
> > But I meant `S-iso-lefttab'.
>
> BTW, could someone explain to me what is the iso-lefttab key?
> What does it look like, where is it "typically" located?
Not I.
(I just know about it because some Icicles users brought it to my attention.
Icicles uses [S-tab], and that wasn't available to users who had only
[S-iso-lefttab].)
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 7+ messages in thread
* Re: Proposal: merge [S-tab] and [backtab]
2010-08-02 20:11 ` Stefan Monnier
2010-08-02 20:15 ` Drew Adams
@ 2010-08-02 20:27 ` Chad Brown
1 sibling, 0 replies; 7+ messages in thread
From: Chad Brown @ 2010-08-02 20:27 UTC (permalink / raw
To: Stefan Monnier; +Cc: Emacs development discussions
On Aug 2, 2010, at 1:11 PM, Stefan Monnier wrote:
>> I think I was the one who mentioned S-iso-tab (in the bug thread).
>> But I meant `S-iso-lefttab'.
>
> BTW, could someone explain to me what is the iso-lefttab key?
> What does it look like, where is it "typically" located?
I believe it stems from the practice on some (older?) keyboards of
printing a pair of arrows on the `tab key', one pointing each
direction, mimicking the placement of (for example) `!' over `1' on
the US-qwerty keyboard.
A little web searching suggests that it originated in the early days
of X:
There is no universal standard for "backward tab" in the X
Window System. On some systems shift+tab gives the keysym "ISO
Left Tab", on others it gives a private "BackTab" keysym and
on others it gives "Tab" and applications tell from the shift
state that it means backward-tab rather than forward-tab. In
the RFB protocol the latter approach is preferred. Viewers
should generate a shifted Tab rather than ISO Left
Tab. However, to be backwards-compatible with existing
viewers, servers should also recognise ISO Left Tab as meaning
a shifted Tab.
That same web searching also suggests that Emacs customization is the
most common source of `caring' about iso-lefttab in the present.
Hope this helps,
*Chad
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 7+ messages in thread
* Re: Proposal: merge [S-tab] and [backtab]
2010-08-02 18:09 ` Drew Adams
2010-08-02 20:11 ` Stefan Monnier
@ 2010-08-03 6:27 ` Paul Griepentrog
1 sibling, 0 replies; 7+ messages in thread
From: Paul Griepentrog @ 2010-08-03 6:27 UTC (permalink / raw
To: Drew Adams; +Cc: emacs-devel
On 8/2/10 11:09 AM, Drew Adams wrote:
> > My proposal is to universally translate [S-tab] and [S-iso-tab]
> > ...
> > I include [S-iso-tab] since it is yet another
> > abused synonym for [backtab].
>
> FWIW -
>
> I think I was the one who mentioned S-iso-tab (in the bug thread).
Yep, I got it from there.
I saw Stefan's commit on /srv/bzr/emacs/emacs-23 r99957, which looks like it
is a more comprehensive way to solve the problem than re-working a few
modes.
I'll go from there.
> But I meant `S-iso-lefttab'.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 7+ messages in thread
end of thread, other threads:[~2010-08-03 6:27 UTC | newest]
Thread overview: 7+ messages (download: mbox.gz follow: Atom feed
-- links below jump to the message on this page --
2010-08-02 4:22 Proposal: merge [S-tab] and [backtab] Paul Griepentrog
2010-08-02 17:42 ` Leo
2010-08-02 18:09 ` Drew Adams
2010-08-02 20:11 ` Stefan Monnier
2010-08-02 20:15 ` Drew Adams
2010-08-02 20:27 ` Chad Brown
2010-08-03 6:27 ` Paul Griepentrog
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