From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Stefan Monnier via "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors" Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.bugs Subject: bug#59609: 29.0.50; [PATCH] Better advertise (Non-)GNU ELPA in emacs manual Date: Fri, 08 Sep 2023 16:10:38 -0400 Message-ID: References: <83pmd9ssp7.fsf@gnu.org> <831qf8yj2l.fsf@gnu.org> <83a5twwmaq.fsf@gnu.org> Reply-To: Stefan Monnier Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="12708"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Cc: 59609@debbugs.gnu.org, stefankangas@gmail.com To: Eli Zaretskii Original-X-From: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Fri Sep 08 22:11:19 2023 Return-path: Envelope-to: geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1qehoy-0002v2-27 for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org; Fri, 08 Sep 2023 22:11:16 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qehok-0004TN-4d; Fri, 08 Sep 2023 16:11:02 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qehoi-0004T6-Fk for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Fri, 08 Sep 2023 16:11:00 -0400 Original-Received: from debbugs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:5::43]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qehoh-0005MS-UM for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Fri, 08 Sep 2023 16:11:00 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-debbugs by debbugs.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qehok-0006pe-8m for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Fri, 08 Sep 2023 16:11:02 -0400 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Resent-From: Stefan Monnier Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Fri, 08 Sep 2023 20:11:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 59609 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: patch Original-Received: via spool by 59609-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B59609.169420385626248 (code B ref 59609); Fri, 08 Sep 2023 20:11:02 +0000 Original-Received: (at 59609) by debbugs.gnu.org; 8 Sep 2023 20:10:56 +0000 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:45732 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qehob-0006pG-EI for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 08 Sep 2023 16:10:56 -0400 Original-Received: from mailscanner.iro.umontreal.ca ([132.204.25.50]:60400) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qehoX-0006p0-4c for 59609@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 08 Sep 2023 16:10:52 -0400 Original-Received: from pmg3.iro.umontreal.ca (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pmg3.iro.umontreal.ca (Proxmox) with ESMTP id 40AD24432DC; Fri, 8 Sep 2023 16:10:41 -0400 (EDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=iro.umontreal.ca; s=mail; t=1694203839; bh=f+umUqArEsyq5Ruer6fND3ggQEWo/2f6iqRCqvFCW04=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:Date:From; b=c95+noJU6bF0zCEKRn/JW3ZwRGe4/0HJ759F33qPHte7wu+W363QDtNEVrLBFOJSz nMc6zyJBQkpWHuJv8TyDjenRMRqQhdg6nqeJIBoR+qdWSlMGPK2K877Z27RqKgXS9C I7r++N4X/Bl3Sq5lbWwoIpwBm/So7SPCzyr3WXzVeW9UsiB/96+wF7p3pud8ua/nyJ 6ctiXhXsJSGyQRTH61oAcxFtoXYyqyd/my/2MjFqB34jrjMRaZ8XkMjKg3fk2xrHvB dPO+0vsnWOzUsZBKiOveBwNvgTL+gOR6H5psWoAByjigHLzTzaINYXODQEdvEcaB93 mCscAk3ZXkyqQ== Original-Received: from mail01.iro.umontreal.ca (unknown [172.31.2.1]) by pmg3.iro.umontreal.ca (Proxmox) with ESMTP id 5F3EE44327A; Fri, 8 Sep 2023 16:10:39 -0400 (EDT) Original-Received: from pastel (unknown [104.247.229.91]) by mail01.iro.umontreal.ca (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 3793A1203CE; Fri, 8 Sep 2023 16:10:39 -0400 (EDT) In-Reply-To: <83a5twwmaq.fsf@gnu.org> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Fri, 08 Sep 2023 21:29:49 +0300") X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list X-BeenThere: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org List-Id: "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.bugs:269822 Archived-At: >> FWIW, GNU ELPA packages don't necessarily "adhere to the Emacs coding >> conventions" either and neither are they all "supervised by the Emacs >> maintainers" or "have to coordinate their development decisions with the >> Emacs team". Some do, but not all of them by a long shot. > > Only because we decide not to do that, or are lazy, or whatever. > Basically, it's our decision for GNU ELPA, and not so for NonGNU ELPA. We have just as much control in one as in the other, in practice. Maybe we tend to invest more efforts in the GNU part, but I'd argue that it's not "because it's in GNU" but because there is a positive correlation between people agreeing to assign their copyright and people sharing our goals. >> In practice the real deciding factor *is* the copyright assignment >> (which often ends up selecting for a kind of "philosophical agreement" >> about the primacy of ethical goals over technical ones). > I think this is just the tip of a very large iceberg, and the FAQ > should say that explicitly. When I said: In practice the real deciding factor *is* the copyright assignment I really meant that this is usually the only factor that makes me decide whether to add a package to GNU or to NonGNU. I can't speak for Philip, but I have the impression he does the same. > Saying that just the CA is the difference is both very inaccurate and > misrepresents the actual situation: NonGNU ELPA is a collection of > packages that someone else decided could be useful, but we basically > have nothing to do with them except hosting them. "someone else"? Packages are added there by "us": % git log -- elpa-packages| grep Author: | sort | uniq -c | sort -n 1 Author: Alfred M. Szmidt 1 Author: Bastien 1 Author: Bozhidar Batsov 1 Author: Bozhidar Batsov 1 Author: Daniel Mendler 1 Author: Danny Freeman 1 Author: Distopico 1 Author: Dmitry Gutov 1 Author: Joseph Turner 1 Author: Sean Whitton 1 Author: Tassilo Horn 1 Author: yilkalargaw 3 Author: Daniel Semyonov 3 Author: Eshel Yaron 7 Author: Jonas Bernoulli 15 Author: Akib Azmain Turja 18 Author: Stefan Kangas 49 Author: Stefan Kangas 49 Author: Stefan Monnier 87 Author: Philip Kaludercic % The result is not really different for `elpa.git`. Several NonGNU packages are (co)maintained by "us" (i.e. people who are regular contributors to Emacs) and on the flip side, there are many GNU ELPA packages for which "we basically have nothing to do with them except hosting them". I don't deny that there are other statistically qualitative differences between GNU and NonGNU, but I think they're very fuzzy and to a large extent they can be seen as a consequence of the copyright paperwork (which makes it possible to imagine the package as being part of Emacs, for example, thus justifying their presence in Debbugs). Stefan