From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Stefan Monnier Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Calling (package-initialize) sooner during initialization Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2015 08:42:58 -0400 Message-ID: References: <87383xk4ia.fsf@taylan.uni.cx> <87d22zi69k.fsf@taylan.uni.cx> NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1429533821 12536 80.91.229.3 (20 Apr 2015 12:43:41 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2015 12:43:41 +0000 (UTC) Cc: Philipp Stephani , Artur Malabarba , emacs-devel To: taylanbayirli@gmail.com (Taylan Ulrich =?utf-8?Q?=22Bay=C4=B1rl=C4=B1?= =?utf-8?Q?=2FKammer=22?=) Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Mon Apr 20 14:43:30 2015 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1YkB2w-0002fy-Ht for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Mon, 20 Apr 2015 14:43:30 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:53237 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1YkB2q-0005Ud-LN for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Mon, 20 Apr 2015 08:43:24 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:57035) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1YkB2Y-0005CA-QY for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 20 Apr 2015 08:43:07 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1YkB2V-0007k2-Dx for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 20 Apr 2015 08:43:06 -0400 Original-Received: from pruche.dit.umontreal.ca ([132.204.246.22]:54376) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1YkB2V-0007ju-7g for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 20 Apr 2015 08:43:03 -0400 Original-Received: from pastel.home (lechon.iro.umontreal.ca [132.204.27.242]) by pruche.dit.umontreal.ca (8.14.1/8.14.1) with ESMTP id t3KCgwMU016588; Mon, 20 Apr 2015 08:42:58 -0400 Original-Received: by pastel.home (Postfix, from userid 20848) id 80FD348EE; Mon, 20 Apr 2015 08:42:58 -0400 (EDT) In-Reply-To: <87d22zi69k.fsf@taylan.uni.cx> ("Taylan Ulrich =?utf-8?Q?=5C=22Bay=C4=B1rl=C4=B1=2FKammer=5C=22=22's?= message of "Mon, 20 Apr 2015 09:54:47 +0200") User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/25.0.50 (gnu/linux) X-NAI-Spam-Flag: NO X-NAI-Spam-Threshold: 5 X-NAI-Spam-Score: 0 X-NAI-Spam-Rules: 1 Rules triggered RV5282=0 X-NAI-Spam-Version: 2.3.0.9393 : core <5282> : inlines <2753> : streams <1425607> : uri <1911249> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 132.204.246.22 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:185697 Archived-At: > I thought the point of this discussion was to find a solution that > doesn't require that? Right, but in the use-case presented by Artur, I can't see how to do better. >> Of course, as mentioned, having `require' in one's ~/.emacs should be >> rare. > I think many people use `require' in their .emacs to load libraries, > though in this case it doesn't matter whether they use `require' or > `load-library', or try to call a function or access a variable or > anything else from the package. Oh, right, of course, the problem is not limited to `require' or `load' (both of which *should* be rare), but also affect the case where the user calls a function from that library (typically a global minor mode) or needs to tweak a variable's value (not just `setq' it, but actually take the previous value and change it). > A user is likely to expect everything defined by a package to be > available during the execution of their init.el; the failure to meet > this expectation is why we get so many confused users asking for help, > receiving the answer "just put (package-initialize) at the top of your > .emacs". But the current code in Emacs's "master" solves this problem by adding "(package-initialize)" in the user's ~/.emacs. > If nobody sees any disadvantages, and nobody beats me to it, I might > start working on implementing the solution that separates pre-package > configuration from normal configuration, including Customize. I don't really know what solution you're referring to. But so far I haven't seen any solution proposed that's really better than what we already have. Stefan