cdlatex-mode in emacs

cdlatex-mode in emacs

[uzibalqa]

Does anybody know when cdlatex-mode was introduced into Emacs?  I am using Emacs 27.2

Re: cdlatex-mode in emacs

[Eli Zaretskii]

> Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2022 03:20:04 +0000
> From: uzibalqa <uzibalqa@proton.me>
> 
> Does anybody know when cdlatex-mode was introduced into Emacs?  I am using Emacs 27.2

There's no cdlatex-mode in Emacs, only org-cdlatex-mode.

Re: cdlatex-mode in emacs

[uzibalqa]

------- Original Message -------
On Thursday, August 25th, 2022 at 6:03 AM, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> wrote:


> > Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2022 03:20:04 +0000
> > From: uzibalqa uzibalqa@proton.me
> > 
> > Does anybody know when cdlatex-mode was introduced into Emacs? I am using Emacs 27.2
> 
> 
> There's no cdlatex-mode in Emacs, only org-cdlatex-mode.

Is there texmathp.el in emacs, which is a Gnu Package.

Re: cdlatex-mode in emacs

[Eli Zaretskii]

> Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2022 06:20:09 +0000
> From: uzibalqa <uzibalqa@proton.me>
> Cc: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
> 
> > > Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2022 03:20:04 +0000
> > > From: uzibalqa uzibalqa@proton.me
> > > 
> > > Does anybody know when cdlatex-mode was introduced into Emacs? I am using Emacs 27.2
> > 
> > 
> > There's no cdlatex-mode in Emacs, only org-cdlatex-mode.
> 
> Is there texmathp.el in emacs, which is a Gnu Package.  

No, not in Emacs.

Re: cdlatex-mode in emacs

[wilnerthomas--- via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor]

Aug 25, 2022, 06:33 by eliz@gnu.org:

>> Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2022 06:20:09 +0000
>> From: uzibalqa <uzibalqa@proton.me>
>> Cc: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
>>
>> > > Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2022 03:20:04 +0000
>> > > From: uzibalqa uzibalqa@proton.me
>> > > 
>> > > Does anybody know when cdlatex-mode was introduced into Emacs? I am using Emacs 27.2
>> > 
>> > 
>> > There's no cdlatex-mode in Emacs, only org-cdlatex-mode.
>>
>> Is there texmathp.el in emacs, which is a Gnu Package.
>>
>
> No, not in Emacs.
>
It is part of AUCTeX which is a Gnu Package.  It comes with Emacs Support for writing
Latex Files.  Could the functionality be included in Emacs.  cdlatex-mode is useful for
rapid writing latex templates and symbols rapidly.

Could improve using tex-mode and latex-mode immensely in Emacs. 

Re: cdlatex-mode in emacs

[Thibaut Verron]

On 25/08/2022 08:53, wilnerthomas--- via Users list for the GNU Emacs 
text editor wrote:
> Aug 25, 2022, 06:33 by eliz@gnu.org:
>
>>> Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2022 06:20:09 +0000
>>> From: uzibalqa <uzibalqa@proton.me>
>>> Cc: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
>>>
>>>>> Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2022 03:20:04 +0000
>>>>> From: uzibalqa uzibalqa@proton.me
>>>>>
>>>>> Does anybody know when cdlatex-mode was introduced into Emacs? I am using Emacs 27.2
>>>>
>>>> There's no cdlatex-mode in Emacs, only org-cdlatex-mode.
>>> Is there texmathp.el in emacs, which is a Gnu Package.
>>>
>> No, not in Emacs.
>>
> It is part of AUCTeX which is a Gnu Package.  It comes with Emacs Support for writing
> Latex Files.  Could the functionality be included in Emacs.  cdlatex-mode is useful for
> rapid writing latex templates and symbols rapidly.
>
> Could improve using tex-mode and latex-mode immensely in Emacs.

AUCTeX is on GNU Elpa, and cdlatex is on NonGNU Elpa, so both can be 
directly installed with the package manager. In my opinion, it is the 
right place for such packages, rather than emacs core: this way they can 
release new versions without having to wait for the emacs release cycle. 
(See: org-mode)

tex-mode and latex-mode are extremely basic modes in comparison, I don't 
know anybody using them. And it's unfortunate that they preempted the 
tex- and latex- namespaces, forcing AUCTeX to capitalize its mode names 
and variables -- but I digress.

Best wishes,

Thibaut

Re: cdlatex-mode in emacs

[uzibalqa]

------- Original Message -------
On Thursday, August 25th, 2022 at 8:08 AM, Thibaut Verron <thibaut.verron@gmail.com> wrote:


> On 25/08/2022 08:53, wilnerthomas--- via Users list for the GNU Emacs
> text editor wrote:
> 
> > Aug 25, 2022, 06:33 by eliz@gnu.org:
> > 
> > > > Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2022 06:20:09 +0000
> > > > From: uzibalqa uzibalqa@proton.me
> > > > Cc: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
> > > > 
> > > > > > Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2022 03:20:04 +0000
> > > > > > From: uzibalqa uzibalqa@proton.me
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > Does anybody know when cdlatex-mode was introduced into Emacs? I am using Emacs 27.2
> > > > > 
> > > > > There's no cdlatex-mode in Emacs, only org-cdlatex-mode.
> > > > > Is there texmathp.el in emacs, which is a Gnu Package.
> > > 
> > > No, not in Emacs.
> > 
> > It is part of AUCTeX which is a Gnu Package. It comes with Emacs Support for writing
> > Latex Files. Could the functionality be included in Emacs. cdlatex-mode is useful for
> > rapid writing latex templates and symbols rapidly.
> > 
> > Could improve using tex-mode and latex-mode immensely in Emacs.
> 
> 
> AUCTeX is on GNU Elpa, and cdlatex is on NonGNU Elpa, so both can be
> directly installed with the package manager. In my opinion, it is the
> right place for such packages, rather than emacs core: this way they can
> release new versions without having to wait for the emacs release cycle.
> (See: org-mode)
> 
> tex-mode and latex-mode are extremely basic modes in comparison, I don't
> know anybody using them. And it's unfortunate that they preempted the
> tex- and latex- namespaces, forcing AUCTeX to capitalize its mode names
> and variables -- but I digress.
 
I agree with your last evaluation Thibaut.  tex-mode and latex-mode are 
extremely basic modes.  Because (as you state) almost nobody using them,
they should be beefed up using ideas from texmathp.el and cdlatex.  With
the useful functionalities incorporated, emacs would not need to always
pick up on every release of those packages.  But users can get them seperately
for added functionality if they wish. 

I encourage that tex-mode and latex-mode stop being intertwined together, but
developed seperately.  The syntax is so different that they produce choas when
all functionality is put in a single file.

Re: cdlatex-mode in emacs

[Thibaut Verron]

On 25/08/2022 12:41, uzibalqa wrote:
> ------- Original Message -------
> On Thursday, August 25th, 2022 at 8:08 AM, Thibaut Verron <thibaut.verron@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>> On 25/08/2022 08:53, wilnerthomas--- via Users list for the GNU Emacs
>> text editor wrote:
>>
>>> Aug 25, 2022, 06:33 by eliz@gnu.org:
>>>
>>>>> Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2022 06:20:09 +0000
>>>>> From: uzibalqa uzibalqa@proton.me
>>>>> Cc: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
>>>>>
>>>>>>> Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2022 03:20:04 +0000
>>>>>>> From: uzibalqa uzibalqa@proton.me
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Does anybody know when cdlatex-mode was introduced into Emacs? I am using Emacs 27.2
>>>>>> There's no cdlatex-mode in Emacs, only org-cdlatex-mode.
>>>>>> Is there texmathp.el in emacs, which is a Gnu Package.
>>>> No, not in Emacs.
>>> It is part of AUCTeX which is a Gnu Package. It comes with Emacs Support for writing
>>> Latex Files. Could the functionality be included in Emacs. cdlatex-mode is useful for
>>> rapid writing latex templates and symbols rapidly.
>>>
>>> Could improve using tex-mode and latex-mode immensely in Emacs.
>>
>> AUCTeX is on GNU Elpa, and cdlatex is on NonGNU Elpa, so both can be
>> directly installed with the package manager. In my opinion, it is the
>> right place for such packages, rather than emacs core: this way they can
>> release new versions without having to wait for the emacs release cycle.
>> (See: org-mode)
>>
>> tex-mode and latex-mode are extremely basic modes in comparison, I don't
>> know anybody using them. And it's unfortunate that they preempted the
>> tex- and latex- namespaces, forcing AUCTeX to capitalize its mode names
>> and variables -- but I digress.
>   
> I agree with your last evaluation Thibaut.  tex-mode and latex-mode are
> extremely basic modes.  Because (as you state) almost nobody using them,
> they should be beefed up using ideas from texmathp.el and cdlatex.  With
> the useful functionalities incorporated, emacs would not need to always
> pick up on every release of those packages.  But users can get them seperately
> for added functionality if they wish.

But what would be the advantage of doing that? Both packages are 
available on the "official" repository for emacs packages, and can be 
installed in a matter of seconds.

Right now the purpose of each package is clear: built-in basic support, 
auctex for advanced IDE-like features, cdlatex for quick math insertion. 
(Note that cdlatex is a minor mode, and can be used to insert maths in 
any emacs buffer.)

> I encourage that tex-mode and latex-mode stop being intertwined together, but
> developed seperately.  The syntax is so different that they produce choas when
> all functionality is put in a single file.

The file tex-mode.el which implements basic support for both tex, latex 
and doctex is less than 4000 lines long. The syntax may be superficially 
different, but a lot of concepts are common between the different 
languages of the family. Plus, one gets support for tex syntax in latex 
documents for free.

AUCTeX, too, builds support for latex on top of the support for tex.

Best wishes,

Thibaut

Re: cdlatex-mode in emacs

[uzibalqa]

------- Original Message -------
On Thursday, August 25th, 2022 at 11:39 AM, Thibaut Verron <thibaut.verron@gmail.com> wrote:


> On 25/08/2022 12:41, uzibalqa wrote:
> 
> > ------- Original Message -------
> > On Thursday, August 25th, 2022 at 8:08 AM, Thibaut Verron thibaut.verron@gmail.com wrote:
> > 
> > > On 25/08/2022 08:53, wilnerthomas--- via Users list for the GNU Emacs
> > > text editor wrote:
> > > 
> > > > Aug 25, 2022, 06:33 by eliz@gnu.org:
> > > > 
> > > > > > Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2022 06:20:09 +0000
> > > > > > From: uzibalqa uzibalqa@proton.me
> > > > > > Cc: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2022 03:20:04 +0000
> > > > > > > > From: uzibalqa uzibalqa@proton.me
> > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > Does anybody know when cdlatex-mode was introduced into Emacs? I am using Emacs 27.2
> > > > > > > > There's no cdlatex-mode in Emacs, only org-cdlatex-mode.
> > > > > > > > Is there texmathp.el in emacs, which is a Gnu Package.
> > > > > > > > No, not in Emacs.
> > > > > > > > It is part of AUCTeX which is a Gnu Package. It comes with Emacs Support for writing
> > > > > > > > Latex Files. Could the functionality be included in Emacs. cdlatex-mode is useful for
> > > > > > > > rapid writing latex templates and symbols rapidly.
> > > > 
> > > > Could improve using tex-mode and latex-mode immensely in Emacs.
> > > 
> > > AUCTeX is on GNU Elpa, and cdlatex is on NonGNU Elpa, so both can be
> > > directly installed with the package manager. In my opinion, it is the
> > > right place for such packages, rather than emacs core: this way they can
> > > release new versions without having to wait for the emacs release cycle.
> > > (See: org-mode)
> > > 
> > > tex-mode and latex-mode are extremely basic modes in comparison, I don't
> > > know anybody using them. And it's unfortunate that they preempted the
> > > tex- and latex- namespaces, forcing AUCTeX to capitalize its mode names
> > > and variables -- but I digress.
> > 
> > I agree with your last evaluation Thibaut. tex-mode and latex-mode are
> > extremely basic modes. Because (as you state) almost nobody using them,
> > they should be beefed up using ideas from texmathp.el and cdlatex. With
> > the useful functionalities incorporated, emacs would not need to always
> > pick up on every release of those packages. But users can get them seperately
> > for added functionality if they wish.
> 
> 
> But what would be the advantage of doing that? Both packages are
> available on the "official" repository for emacs packages, and can be
> installed in a matter of seconds.

Emacs should have good built-in support for all language and hypertext modes it
supports.  cdlatex was made because tex-mode and latex-mode are very frustrating
to do serious work and be productive with them.  cdlatex does have problems, and
Emacs Maintainers are capable of doing a better job than relying just on the work
of one person.  
 
> Right now the purpose of each package is clear: built-in basic support,
> auctex for advanced IDE-like features, cdlatex for quick math insertion.
> (Note that cdlatex is a minor mode, and can be used to insert maths in
> any emacs buffer.)
> 
> > I encourage that tex-mode and latex-mode stop being intertwined together, but
> > developed seperately. The syntax is so different that they produce choas when
> > all functionality is put in a single file.
> 
> 
> The file tex-mode.el which implements basic support for both tex, latex
> and doctex is less than 4000 lines long. The syntax may be superficially
> different, but a lot of concepts are common between the different
> languages of the family. Plus, one gets support for tex syntax in latex
> documents for free.
> 
> AUCTeX, too, builds support for latex on top of the support for tex.
> 
> Best wishes,
> Thibaut

Concept that are exactly common should be moved out in a separate files.
tex-mode, latex-mode, etc, can call them.  Better to have a number of smaller
files but with a well organised design.

Re: cdlatex-mode in emacs

[Thibaut Verron]

On 25/08/2022 14:03, uzibalqa wrote:
> ------- Original Message -------
> On Thursday, August 25th, 2022 at 11:39 AM, Thibaut Verron <thibaut.verron@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>> On 25/08/2022 12:41, uzibalqa wrote:
>>
>>> ------- Original Message -------
>>> On Thursday, August 25th, 2022 at 8:08 AM, Thibaut Verron thibaut.verron@gmail.com wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 25/08/2022 08:53, wilnerthomas--- via Users list for the GNU Emacs
>>>> text editor wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Aug 25, 2022, 06:33 by eliz@gnu.org:
>>>>>
>>>>>>> Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2022 06:20:09 +0000
>>>>>>> From: uzibalqa uzibalqa@proton.me
>>>>>>> Cc: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2022 03:20:04 +0000
>>>>>>>>> From: uzibalqa uzibalqa@proton.me
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Does anybody know when cdlatex-mode was introduced into Emacs? I am using Emacs 27.2
>>>>>>>>> There's no cdlatex-mode in Emacs, only org-cdlatex-mode.
>>>>>>>>> Is there texmathp.el in emacs, which is a Gnu Package.
>>>>>>>>> No, not in Emacs.
>>>>>>>>> It is part of AUCTeX which is a Gnu Package. It comes with Emacs Support for writing
>>>>>>>>> Latex Files. Could the functionality be included in Emacs. cdlatex-mode is useful for
>>>>>>>>> rapid writing latex templates and symbols rapidly.
>>>>> Could improve using tex-mode and latex-mode immensely in Emacs.
>>>> AUCTeX is on GNU Elpa, and cdlatex is on NonGNU Elpa, so both can be
>>>> directly installed with the package manager. In my opinion, it is the
>>>> right place for such packages, rather than emacs core: this way they can
>>>> release new versions without having to wait for the emacs release cycle.
>>>> (See: org-mode)
>>>>
>>>> tex-mode and latex-mode are extremely basic modes in comparison, I don't
>>>> know anybody using them. And it's unfortunate that they preempted the
>>>> tex- and latex- namespaces, forcing AUCTeX to capitalize its mode names
>>>> and variables -- but I digress.
>>> I agree with your last evaluation Thibaut. tex-mode and latex-mode are
>>> extremely basic modes. Because (as you state) almost nobody using them,
>>> they should be beefed up using ideas from texmathp.el and cdlatex. With
>>> the useful functionalities incorporated, emacs would not need to always
>>> pick up on every release of those packages. But users can get them seperately
>>> for added functionality if they wish.
>>
>> But what would be the advantage of doing that? Both packages are
>> available on the "official" repository for emacs packages, and can be
>> installed in a matter of seconds.
> Emacs should have good built-in support for all language and hypertext modes it
> supports.

Then Emacs will be huge and the release cycle much slower.

A lot of languages and hypertext modes supported by emacs have 
relatively limited built-in support in comparison with what's available 
in packages.

Note that I said "relatively" limited, because the built-in support for 
latex is only limited when compared to amazing feats like AUCTeX. Reftex 
(table of contents, multi-file support, cross-references, bibliography 
management), and outline-mode (sectional navigation) are both included 
with emacs, and offer support that even dedicated latex IDEs can have 
trouble imitating.


> cdlatex was made because tex-mode and latex-mode are very frustrating
> to do serious work and be productive with them.  cdlatex does have problems, and
> Emacs Maintainers are capable of doing a better job than relying just on the work
> of one person.

There seems to be a confusion: cdlatex and latex-mode are completely 
different and have different goals. latex-mode, like AUCTeX's 
LaTeX-mode, is a major mode for editing latex files. That covers 
everything from syntax highlighting to reference management to sectional 
navigation to, yes, macro and environment insertion.

On the other hand, cdlatex is a minor mode which focuses on fast 
insertion of a limited set of macros and environments. Most of its 
features are extensions of AUCTeX features, such as LaTeX-math-mode, 
TeX-electric-sub-or-superscript, etc.

AUCTeX already existed when cdlatex was invented, and I'm 99% sure that 
its author uses cdlatex on top of AUCTeX, rather than with latex-mode. 
One could argue that cdlatex could be included in AUCTeX. I personally 
would not like this to happen, because cdlatex has a very different 
philosophy and can be a lot more intrusive than AUCTeX.

By the way, the "one person" maintaining cdlatex is also the original 
author of org-mode, as well as texmathp and RefTeX which are two major 
components of AUCTeX. If anything, that alone convinces me that keeping 
cdlatex and AUCTeX separate is a reasonable choice.

Most of the problems I see with cdlatex come from the fact that it's a 
rather small package, designed to implement precisely the ergonomics 
intended by its author. The result is an opinionated package which is 
reliably doing exactly what it is supposed to do, but with whom users 
can occasionally disagree. Making it more flexible would come at the 
cost of reduced reliability. And allocating more humanpower to the 
maintenance would not really change anything.

>> Right now the purpose of each package is clear: built-in basic support,
>> auctex for advanced IDE-like features, cdlatex for quick math insertion.
>> (Note that cdlatex is a minor mode, and can be used to insert maths in
>> any emacs buffer.)
>>
>>> I encourage that tex-mode and latex-mode stop being intertwined together, but
>>> developed seperately. The syntax is so different that they produce choas when
>>> all functionality is put in a single file.
>>
>> The file tex-mode.el which implements basic support for both tex, latex
>> and doctex is less than 4000 lines long. The syntax may be superficially
>> different, but a lot of concepts are common between the different
>> languages of the family. Plus, one gets support for tex syntax in latex
>> documents for free.
>>
>> AUCTeX, too, builds support for latex on top of the support for tex.
>>
>> Best wishes,
>> Thibaut
> Concept that are exactly common should be moved out in a separate files.
> tex-mode, latex-mode, etc, can call them. Better to have a number of smaller
> files but with a well organised design.

The file seems well organized to me, the code is grouped according to 
the provided features. That's a lot easier to use and manage than having 
to modify n files at exactly the right place anytime one wants to add a 
new feature.

Most of the contents is common concepts, with little bits of 
instantiation here and there. And a lot of the language-specific content 
(in terms of lines of code) is documentation rather than code. Again, 
that's because tex- and latex- mode do not attempt to implement more 
than basic support for latex files.

In any case it is a concern for developers, not users. Do you have 
changes that you would like to include in tex-mode.el, but can't because 
of the current file structure?

Best wishes,

Thibaut

Re: cdlatex-mode in emacs

[uzibalqa]

------- Original Message -------
On Thursday, August 25th, 2022 at 1:07 PM, Thibaut Verron <thibaut.verron@gmail.com> wrote:


> On 25/08/2022 14:03, uzibalqa wrote:
> 
> > ------- Original Message -------
> > On Thursday, August 25th, 2022 at 11:39 AM, Thibaut Verron thibaut.verron@gmail.com wrote:
> > 
> > > On 25/08/2022 12:41, uzibalqa wrote:
> > > 
> > > > ------- Original Message -------
> > > > On Thursday, August 25th, 2022 at 8:08 AM, Thibaut Verron thibaut.verron@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > 
> > > > > On 25/08/2022 08:53, wilnerthomas--- via Users list for the GNU Emacs
> > > > > text editor wrote:
> > > > > 
> > > > > > Aug 25, 2022, 06:33 by eliz@gnu.org:
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2022 06:20:09 +0000
> > > > > > > > From: uzibalqa uzibalqa@proton.me
> > > > > > > > Cc: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
> > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2022 03:20:04 +0000
> > > > > > > > > > From: uzibalqa uzibalqa@proton.me
> > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > Does anybody know when cdlatex-mode was introduced into Emacs? I am using Emacs 27.2
> > > > > > > > > > There's no cdlatex-mode in Emacs, only org-cdlatex-mode.
> > > > > > > > > > Is there texmathp.el in emacs, which is a Gnu Package.
> > > > > > > > > > No, not in Emacs.
> > > > > > > > > > It is part of AUCTeX which is a Gnu Package. It comes with Emacs Support for writing
> > > > > > > > > > Latex Files. Could the functionality be included in Emacs. cdlatex-mode is useful for
> > > > > > > > > > rapid writing latex templates and symbols rapidly.
> > > > > > > > > > Could improve using tex-mode and latex-mode immensely in Emacs.
> > > > > > > > > > AUCTeX is on GNU Elpa, and cdlatex is on NonGNU Elpa, so both can be
> > > > > > > > > > directly installed with the package manager. In my opinion, it is the
> > > > > > > > > > right place for such packages, rather than emacs core: this way they can
> > > > > > > > > > release new versions without having to wait for the emacs release cycle.
> > > > > > > > > > (See: org-mode)
> > > > > 
> > > > > tex-mode and latex-mode are extremely basic modes in comparison, I don't
> > > > > know anybody using them. And it's unfortunate that they preempted the
> > > > > tex- and latex- namespaces, forcing AUCTeX to capitalize its mode names
> > > > > and variables -- but I digress.
> > > > > I agree with your last evaluation Thibaut. tex-mode and latex-mode are
> > > > > extremely basic modes. Because (as you state) almost nobody using them,
> > > > > they should be beefed up using ideas from texmathp.el and cdlatex. With
> > > > > the useful functionalities incorporated, emacs would not need to always
> > > > > pick up on every release of those packages. But users can get them seperately
> > > > > for added functionality if they wish.
> > > 
> > > But what would be the advantage of doing that? Both packages are
> > > available on the "official" repository for emacs packages, and can be
> > > installed in a matter of seconds.
> > > Emacs should have good built-in support for all language and hypertext modes it
> > > supports.
> 
> 
> Then Emacs will be huge and the release cycle much slower.
> 
> A lot of languages and hypertext modes supported by emacs have
> relatively limited built-in support in comparison with what's available
> in packages.
> 
> Note that I said "relatively" limited, because the built-in support for
> latex is only limited when compared to amazing feats like AUCTeX. Reftex
> (table of contents, multi-file support, cross-references, bibliography
> management), and outline-mode (sectional navigation) are both included
> with emacs, and offer support that even dedicated latex IDEs can have
> trouble imitating.
> 
> > cdlatex was made because tex-mode and latex-mode are very frustrating
> > to do serious work and be productive with them. cdlatex does have problems, and
> > Emacs Maintainers are capable of doing a better job than relying just on the work
> > of one person.
> 
> 
> There seems to be a confusion: cdlatex and latex-mode are completely
> different and have different goals. latex-mode, like AUCTeX's
> LaTeX-mode, is a major mode for editing latex files. That covers
> everything from syntax highlighting to reference management to sectional
> navigation to, yes, macro and environment insertion.
> 
> On the other hand, cdlatex is a minor mode which focuses on fast
> insertion of a limited set of macros and environments. Most of its
> features are extensions of AUCTeX features, such as LaTeX-math-mode,
> TeX-electric-sub-or-superscript, etc.
> 
> AUCTeX already existed when cdlatex was invented, and I'm 99% sure that
> its author uses cdlatex on top of AUCTeX, rather than with latex-mode.
> One could argue that cdlatex could be included in AUCTeX. I personally
> would not like this to happen, because cdlatex has a very different
> philosophy and can be a lot more intrusive than AUCTeX.
> 
> By the way, the "one person" maintaining cdlatex is also the original
> author of org-mode, as well as texmathp and RefTeX which are two major
> components of AUCTeX. If anything, that alone convinces me that keeping
> cdlatex and AUCTeX separate is a reasonable choice.
> 
> Most of the problems I see with cdlatex come from the fact that it's a
> rather small package, designed to implement precisely the ergonomics
> intended by its author. The result is an opinionated package which is
> reliably doing exactly what it is supposed to do, but with whom users
> can occasionally disagree. Making it more flexible would come at the
> cost of reduced reliability. And allocating more humanpower to the
> maintenance would not really change anything.
> 
> > > Right now the purpose of each package is clear: built-in basic support,
> > > auctex for advanced IDE-like features, cdlatex for quick math insertion.
> > > (Note that cdlatex is a minor mode, and can be used to insert maths in
> > > any emacs buffer.)
> > > 
> > > > I encourage that tex-mode and latex-mode stop being intertwined together, but
> > > > developed seperately. The syntax is so different that they produce choas when
> > > > all functionality is put in a single file.
> > > 
> > > The file tex-mode.el which implements basic support for both tex, latex
> > > and doctex is less than 4000 lines long. The syntax may be superficially
> > > different, but a lot of concepts are common between the different
> > > languages of the family. Plus, one gets support for tex syntax in latex
> > > documents for free.
> > > 
> > > AUCTeX, too, builds support for latex on top of the support for tex.
> > > 
> > > Best wishes,
> > > Thibaut
> > > Concept that are exactly common should be moved out in a separate files.
> > > tex-mode, latex-mode, etc, can call them. Better to have a number of smaller
> > > files but with a well organised design.
> 
> 
> The file seems well organized to me, the code is grouped according to
> the provided features. That's a lot easier to use and manage than having
> to modify n files at exactly the right place anytime one wants to add a
> new feature.
> 
> Most of the contents is common concepts, with little bits of
> instantiation here and there. And a lot of the language-specific content
> (in terms of lines of code) is documentation rather than code. Again,
> that's because tex- and latex- mode do not attempt to implement more
> than basic support for latex files.
> 
> In any case it is a concern for developers, not users. Do you have
> changes that you would like to include in tex-mode.el, but can't because
> of the current file structure?

One feature I did include in my implementation for tex-mode is to highlight
tex commands such as "\sqrt", "\omega" and the rest.  But the starting "\"
is not highlighted in order to distinguish different components such as in 
"\alpha\beta" and "\sin\omega_k".  
 
> Best wishes,
> Thibaut

cdlatex would also be useful for use with texinfo-mode, particularly now that
texinfo uses mathjax.

Re: cdlatex-mode in emacs

[thibaut.verron]

On 25/08/2022 17:03, uzibalqa <uzibalqa@proton.me> wrote:
> ------- Original Message -------

> >
> > The file seems well organized to me, the code is grouped according to
> > the provided features. That's a lot easier to use and manage than having
> > to modify n files at exactly the right place anytime one wants to add a
> > new feature.
> >
> > Most of the contents is common concepts, with little bits of
> > instantiation here and there. And a lot of the language-specific content
> > (in terms of lines of code) is documentation rather than code. Again,
> > that's because tex- and latex- mode do not attempt to implement more
> > than basic support for latex files.
> >
> > In any case it is a concern for developers, not users. Do you have
> > changes that you would like to include in tex-mode.el, but can't because
> > of the current file structure?
> 
> One feature I did include in my implementation for tex-mode is to highlight
> tex commands such as "\sqrt", "\omega" and the rest.  But the starting "\"
> is not highlighted in order to distinguish different components such as in
> "\alpha\beta" and "\sin\omega_k".

This sounds like a feature which would be common to all tex flavours, and therefore be easy to integrate in the current code base, no?

> 
> cdlatex would also be useful for use with texinfo-mode, particularly now that
> texinfo uses mathjax.
> 

cdlatex is a minor mode, so you can activate it in texinfo-mode buffers. Do you run into problems when you do that?
(Some languages do expect different markup than latex, leading to wrapper packages like org-cdlatex. I don't know texinfo, but I seem to remember that cdlatex supports \( \) as math delimiters, which should be useful for mathjax.)

Re: cdlatex-mode in emacs

[uzibalqa]

------- Original Message -------
On Thursday, August 25th, 2022 at 3:58 PM, <thibaut.verron@gmail.com> wrote:


> 
> On 25/08/2022 17:03, uzibalqa uzibalqa@proton.me wrote:
> 
> > ------- Original Message -------
> 
> > > The file seems well organized to me, the code is grouped according to
> > > the provided features. That's a lot easier to use and manage than having
> > > to modify n files at exactly the right place anytime one wants to add a
> > > new feature.
> > > 
> > > Most of the contents is common concepts, with little bits of
> > > instantiation here and there. And a lot of the language-specific content
> > > (in terms of lines of code) is documentation rather than code. Again,
> > > that's because tex- and latex- mode do not attempt to implement more
> > > than basic support for latex files.
> > > 
> > > In any case it is a concern for developers, not users. Do you have
> > > changes that you would like to include in tex-mode.el, but can't because
> > > of the current file structure?
> > 
> > One feature I did include in my implementation for tex-mode is to highlight
> > tex commands such as "\sqrt", "\omega" and the rest. But the starting "\"
> > is not highlighted in order to distinguish different components such as in
> > "\alpha\beta" and "\sin\omega_k".
> 
> 
> This sounds like a feature which would be common to all tex flavours, and therefore be easy to integrate in the current code base, no?

Correct.  It can be done as follows

(defface texmark-colour

  '( (default :inherit bold)

     ( ((class color) (background light)) :foreground "#00FF00" )

     ( ((class color) (background dark))  :foreground "#00FF00" )

     (t :inherit font-lock-builtin-face) )

  "User defined colour typeface for tex command keywords.")

(defconst texmark-cluster

  `(
    
    (,(rx "\\" word-start (group (or "alpha" "beta" "chi" "delta"

          "Delta" "epsilon" "varepsilon" "eta" "gamma" "Gamma" "iota"))

	  word-end)

     (1 'texmark-colour))

and so on
 
Finally doing

(defun texmark-typeface-enable ()

  "Sets the highlight colour for tex commands."

  (font-lock-add-keywords nil texmark-cluster t)

  (font-lock-flush))



> > cdlatex would also be useful for use with texinfo-mode, particularly now that
> > texinfo uses mathjax.
> 
> 
> cdlatex is a minor mode, so you can activate it in texinfo-mode buffers. Do you run into problems when you do that?
> (Some languages do expect different markup than latex, leading to wrapper packages like org-cdlatex. I don't know texinfo, but I seem to remember that cdlatex supports \( \) as math delimiters, which should be useful for mathjax.)

There can be certain instances where cdlatex might not work for certain environments.  I think that cdlatex
looks at the math context, and if it not as expected, the commands do nothing.  Se really it is not so general
as it ought to be.

[historical remarks] (was: cdlatex-mode in emacs)

[Uwe Brauer]

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>>> "u" == uzibalqa  <uzibalqa@proton.me> writes:

> Does anybody know when cdlatex-mode was introduced into Emacs? I am
> using Emacs 27.2


CDlatex (Carsten Dominik)latex

Was introduced in the 90 (96 I think) as a single simple file that
covered most of auctex functionality regarding inserting latex commands
(there was no compilation or error scanning etc etc). As the author
states it is template based not hook based and was faster when it was
introduced.

I think it is still maintained, but not actively developed and has nowadays be
included in org mode. I still use it even in latex files, for which I
mainly rely on auctex.

BTW Carsten is also the author of reftex (which is now part of GNU
emacs) and org-mode, that is also part of GNU Emacs.


Uwe Brauer 



I strongly condemn Putin's war of aggression against the Ukraine.
I support to deliver weapons to Ukraine's military. 
I support the ban of Russia from SWIFT.
I support the EU membership of the Ukraine. 

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Re: [historical remarks]

[Stefan Monnier via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor]

> I think it is still maintained,

Indeed, as witnessed by the three releases up on

    https://elpa.nongnu.org/nongnu/cdlatex.html

> and has nowadays be included in org mode.

Really?


        Stefan

Re: [historical remarks]

[uzibalqa]

------- Original Message -------
On Saturday, August 27th, 2022 at 3:52 PM, Stefan Monnier via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor <help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> wrote:


> > I think it is still maintained,
> 
> 
> Indeed, as witnessed by the three releases up on
> 
> https://elpa.nongnu.org/nongnu/cdlatex.html
> 
> > and has nowadays be included in org mode.
> 
> 
> Really?
> 
> Stefan

A persuasive reason to include cdlatex into built-in emacs for tex-mode and latex-mode, 
considering that the equivalent for org-mode has been included.

Re: [historical remarks]

[Alessandro Bertulli]

uzibalqa <uzibalqa@proton.me> writes:

> ------- Original Message -------
> On Saturday, August 27th, 2022 at 3:52 PM, Stefan Monnier via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor <help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> wrote:
>
> A persuasive reason to include cdlatex into built-in emacs for tex-mode and latex-mode, 
> considering that the equivalent for org-mode has been included.

I drop by to ask a question about this: what are the differences between
cdlatex-mode and org-cdlatex-mode? I am preparing to write my thesis and
I'm setting up AUCTeX, and I resolved to use org-cdlatex-mode for 2
reasons:

1. I'm trying to have a consistent interface between LaTeX and Org, so
to have a "learn once, use twice" experience (and in the future to think
about the possibility of using Org for my documents)
2. I configured AUCTeX to convert `$` to `\(\)`, for inline math. Using
cdlatex-mode hijacks the keybinding and inserts `$$`, while org-cdlatex
doesn't.

So, are there differences, especially ones that make you use
cdlatex-mode over org-cdlatex-mode?

Alessandro

Re: [historical remarks]

[uzibalqa]

------- Original Message -------
On Saturday, August 27th, 2022 at 5:10 PM, Alessandro Bertulli <alessandro.bertulli96@gmail.com> wrote:


> uzibalqa uzibalqa@proton.me writes:
> 
> > ------- Original Message -------
> > On Saturday, August 27th, 2022 at 3:52 PM, Stefan Monnier via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org wrote:
> > 
> > A persuasive reason to include cdlatex into built-in emacs for tex-mode and latex-mode,
> > considering that the equivalent for org-mode has been included.
> 
> 
> I drop by to ask a question about this: what are the differences between
> cdlatex-mode and org-cdlatex-mode? I am preparing to write my thesis and
> I'm setting up AUCTeX, and I resolved to use org-cdlatex-mode for 2
> reasons:
> 
> 1. I'm trying to have a consistent interface between LaTeX and Org, so
> to have a "learn once, use twice" experience (and in the future to think
> about the possibility of using Org for my documents)
> 2. I configured AUCTeX to convert `$` to `\\(\\)`, for inline math. Using
> cdlatex-mode hijacks the keybinding and inserts `$$`, while org-cdlatex
> doesn't.
> 
> So, are there differences, especially ones that make you use
> cdlatex-mode over org-cdlatex-mode?
> 
> Alessandro

I want control on the output document, and switching to org-mode will end up using latex
block all the time.  So I use latex for work.   

When I want to just write something, I use org-mode, then export to LaTeX and be done with it.

Do not use cdlatex-mode under org-mode, but use the special version org-cdlatex-mode.

Re: [historical remarks]

[Stefan Monnier via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor]

> I drop by to ask a question about this: what are the differences between
> cdlatex-mode and org-cdlatex-mode?

Technically, `org-cdlatex-mode` which delegates the bulk of the work to
the code of `cdlatex-mode`.

> 2. I configured AUCTeX to convert `$` to `\(\)`, for inline math. Using
> cdlatex-mode hijacks the keybinding and inserts `$$`, while org-cdlatex
> doesn't.

Sounds like a bug you should report to the cdlatex-mode maintainer.


        Stefan

Re: [historical remarks]

[Arash Esbati]

Stefan Monnier via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor <help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> writes:

>> 2. I configured AUCTeX to convert `$` to `\(\)`, for inline math. Using
>> cdlatex-mode hijacks the keybinding and inserts `$$`, while org-cdlatex
>> doesn't.
>
> Sounds like a bug you should report to the cdlatex-mode maintainer.

I'd try to customize `cdlatex-paired-parens', maybe that helps:

  (defcustom cdlatex-paired-parens "$[{"
    "String with the opening parens you want to have inserted paired.
  The following parens are allowed here: `$([{|<'.
  I recommend to set this to '$[{' as these have syntactical meaning in
  TeX and are required to be paired.  TAB is a good way to move out of paired
  parens."
    :group 'cdlatex-miscellaneous-configurations
    :type '(string :tag "Opening delimiters"))

I don't use cdlatex so I can't tell.

Best, Arash

Re: [historical remarks]

[Arash Esbati]

Arash Esbati <arash@gnu.org> writes:

> Stefan Monnier via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor <help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> writes:
>
>>> 2. I configured AUCTeX to convert `$` to `\(\)`, for inline math. Using
>>> cdlatex-mode hijacks the keybinding and inserts `$$`, while org-cdlatex
>>> doesn't.
>>
>> Sounds like a bug you should report to the cdlatex-mode maintainer.
>
> I'd try to customize `cdlatex-paired-parens', maybe that helps:
>
>   (defcustom cdlatex-paired-parens "$[{"
>     "String with the opening parens you want to have inserted paired.
>   The following parens are allowed here: `$([{|<'.
>   I recommend to set this to '$[{' as these have syntactical meaning in
>   TeX and are required to be paired.  TAB is a good way to move out of paired
>   parens."
>     :group 'cdlatex-miscellaneous-configurations
>     :type '(string :tag "Opening delimiters"))
>
> I don't use cdlatex so I can't tell.

Following up myself, I missed to insert this one as well:

  (defcustom cdlatex-takeover-dollar t
    "Non-nil means, cdlatex is allowed to take over the $.
  This means it will redefine the `$' keys."
    :group 'cdlatex-miscellaneous-configurations
    :type '(boolean))

Best, Arash

Re: [historical remarks]

[Stefan Monnier via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor]

Arash Esbati [2022-08-28 11:02:53] wrote:
> Stefan Monnier via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor <help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> writes:
>>> 2. I configured AUCTeX to convert `$` to `\(\)`, for inline math. Using
>>> cdlatex-mode hijacks the keybinding and inserts `$$`, while org-cdlatex
>>> doesn't.
>> Sounds like a bug you should report to the cdlatex-mode maintainer.
> I'd try to customize `cdlatex-paired-parens', maybe that helps:

There are various ways to work around the problem, indeed, but I think
it still counts as a bug in `cdlatex-mode`: until recently that package
was not usable at all without install AUCTeX, so it *should* work well
with AUCTeX without having to do too much extra work.


        Stefan

Re: [historical remarks]

[Arash Esbati]

Stefan Monnier via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor <help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> writes:

>> and has nowadays be included in org mode.
>
> Really?

I don't think so.  This is what org manual says[1]:

  12.5.3 Using CDLaTeX to enter math

  CDLaTeX mode is a minor mode that is normally used in combination with
  a major LaTeX mode like AUCTeX in order to speed-up insertion of
  environments and math templates.  Inside Org mode, you can make use of
  some of the features of CDLaTeX mode.  You need to install
  ‘cdlatex.el’ and ‘texmathp.el’ (the latter comes also with AUCTeX)
  using MELPA with the Emacs packaging system or alternatively from
  https://staff.fnwi.uva.nl/c.dominik/Tools/cdlatex/.

Best, Arash

Footnotes:
[1]  https://orgmode.org/manual/CDLaTeX-mode.html