From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mp1.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:1008:1e59::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by ms8.migadu.com with LMTPS id kH6kH5PFnmW1eQEAkFu2QA (envelope-from ) for ; Wed, 10 Jan 2024 17:28:03 +0100 Received: from aspmx1.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:303:e16b::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by mp1.migadu.com with LMTPS id aGBfGZPFnmUnzgAA62LTzQ (envelope-from ) for ; Wed, 10 Jan 2024 17:28:03 +0100 X-Envelope-To: larch@yhetil.org Authentication-Results: aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=pass header.d=iro.umontreal.ca header.s=mail header.b="Olc8a6P/"; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org"; dmarc=pass (policy=quarantine) header.from=iro.umontreal.ca ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yhetil.org; s=key1; t=1704904083; h=from:from:sender:sender:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date: message-id:message-id:to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version: content-type:content-type:in-reply-to:in-reply-to: references:references:list-id:list-help:list-unsubscribe: list-subscribe:list-post:dkim-signature; bh=i07NeECdd9zXjJkilqAg8S1wcB20g6pHnMdOZ1YdN3M=; b=XbEiCKFFg2Mx2yjWpa7mpSIwd8VBK/MB0mWlfDUa/KkHI8BoY239hcXE1L05ftbve4D06l Fm6ALDe1rCElR1Jeert+mn+HMeohPSt2fEMO6fFB4lkPEUg/oxjN5uzZJ7iHOlkrMQZeSi iuY9S79mCzAB4EiX6Ccbj3+8DwOxjJ1x3W7Ap5iLx/CIMXd2ethj1Ri/vqkisH0igATdlR AiRwErkwFe8FWtm6Xv8E8ldxP/rI/dvfZDHa0ZLA3yySIXIz6fL4Wh0FPxzCEmNTJTYn/O Nh8z+k8coBCSYlWRqUMc3BUU+SK+TwKRT9w1W+3sfuWrXNhYsGIqPMYqDUp86A== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=pass header.d=iro.umontreal.ca header.s=mail header.b="Olc8a6P/"; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org"; dmarc=pass (policy=quarantine) header.from=iro.umontreal.ca ARC-Seal: i=1; s=key1; d=yhetil.org; t=1704904083; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=Kj6KQ5s2RYteNERGc7468Xk/vkicF9kSQdnTc46cJVCkzKuBh3qN3GHymUbwTSHqdptzkO FRsFaWNMME94m9DXSk6VAmJ8uOs72qf0P0PSIgCSBO8eIxN63TZeqgPb/r7tFBc7W3jug3 gCVvOLt9Zrg6ZgeI54IarIWrddhV5FczoF3QWrbJPoYvMY43bAKu7kqxn8l0deOdAqqXsg GHOQDU4erXbXh5qLn+7YMxKrLE54F77Vc6QeE0hdrLVpzdPGYmAT+kP3XHMcsA/al0J8yV 0NxbE2/njkjEnhuDTEucxSNm/tyrhWN8Nv2MkH7jKBFeA3mAniTKr6L4QYnMUw== Received: from lists.gnu.org (lists.gnu.org [209.51.188.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by aspmx1.migadu.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3261F44153 for ; Wed, 10 Jan 2024 17:28:01 +0100 (CET) Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1rNbQ6-0004r2-Bz; Wed, 10 Jan 2024 11:27:10 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1rNbQ4-0004ph-Fa for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Wed, 10 Jan 2024 11:27:08 -0500 Received: from mailscanner.iro.umontreal.ca ([132.204.25.50]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1rNbQ2-0000Fr-LO; Wed, 10 Jan 2024 11:27:08 -0500 Received: from pmg3.iro.umontreal.ca (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pmg3.iro.umontreal.ca (Proxmox) with ESMTP id ED910442D9A; Wed, 10 Jan 2024 11:27:03 -0500 (EST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=iro.umontreal.ca; s=mail; t=1704904022; bh=6heG3ougxHMqUIFd5Ld1bWx3tgm15VNaFTjPFA7RKFU=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:Date:From; b=Olc8a6P/fwr5fjirrewDbXMuLmNvk3f1C8u927Ufm05hpcPxPt9pGqDAYFH6y5yPc Fuh/6zwgsv/j16uTDJLDmQ4D0zRg5dlNXlA9h1dl0/r6BByXDCksskuf1GFsgTHxBQ Cc47FFFW5xiKM2mHRvPe0M0pu250cIuH5oBoZ4LCJsy7ICqHBjbhcZAlhXBhmiEPMM JlvzV0R10Pt8pIvephR0GY/WFlVMXaYV4byswsMjZR4tn7xRgri5aFEFWaM3lVaOx7 S+PYb2w6TMFQ95Zyw4ReN73lnmSmvSjIVYvpf3XyTavBWnAJLzxTrbD4YhkmH/Uq0h fOi8OMXRBwvCw== Received: from mail01.iro.umontreal.ca (unknown [172.31.2.1]) by pmg3.iro.umontreal.ca (Proxmox) with ESMTP id 7D616442D97; Wed, 10 Jan 2024 11:27:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from lechazo (lechon.iro.umontreal.ca [132.204.27.242]) by mail01.iro.umontreal.ca (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 69C281207A7; Wed, 10 Jan 2024 11:27:02 -0500 (EST) From: Stefan Monnier To: Ihor Radchenko Cc: Eli Zaretskii , emacs-orgmode@gnu.org, 65734@debbugs.gnu.org, manikulin@gmail.com, iota@whxvd.name Subject: Re: bug#65734: [BUG] kill-whole-line on folded subtrees [9.6.8 (release_9.6.8-3-g21171d @ /home/w/usr/emacs/0/29/0/lisp/org/)] In-Reply-To: <87sf35pcds.fsf@localhost> (Ihor Radchenko's message of "Wed, 10 Jan 2024 13:05:19 +0000") Message-ID: References: <87il8pao4l.fsf@whxvd.name> <87tts8vrpb.fsf@localhost> <83cyyw4of7.fsf@gnu.org> <875y4ovct9.fsf@localhost> <875y04yq9s.fsf@localhost> <875y02y0da.fsf@localhost> <87frz6w2zt.fsf@localhost> <83cyu9nyea.fsf@gnu.org> <87sf35pcds.fsf@localhost> Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2024 11:26:08 -0500 User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Received-SPF: pass client-ip=132.204.25.50; envelope-from=monnier@iro.umontreal.ca; helo=mailscanner.iro.umontreal.ca X-Spam_score_int: -42 X-Spam_score: -4.3 X-Spam_bar: ---- X-Spam_report: (-4.3 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "General discussions about Org-mode." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org Sender: emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org X-Migadu-Country: US X-Migadu-Flow: FLOW_IN X-Migadu-Scanner: mx13.migadu.com X-Migadu-Spam-Score: -9.16 X-Spam-Score: -9.16 X-Migadu-Queue-Id: 3261F44153 X-TUID: uCkYWb0kXJ48 >> I said that remapping widely-used keys to commands that behave >> significantly differently places a non-trivial burden on users, >> especially on those who use the remapping mode relatively rarely. > > Sure. From which I concluded that Org mode should avoid remapping I don't think that's what it means. It means that it depends on what is the end-user-visible effect. If the remapped version of the command "does the same" conceptually, then it's OK (even more so if the non-remapped version of the command ends up misbehaving). I think the main question is: can we expect that some users out there will want to use the non-remapped version of the command because they prefer its behavior? So, when the alternative is to directly modify the behavior of the non-remapped command, remapping is always acceptable. [ But sometimes, remapping just doesn't do what we want, because the command is also used as a function from other places. ] Stefan