From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Thien-Thi Nguyen Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Info tutorial is out of date Date: 18 Jul 2006 13:34:18 -0400 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: main.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: sea.gmane.org 1153244078 8074 80.91.229.2 (18 Jul 2006 17:34:38 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2006 17:34:38 +0000 (UTC) Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Tue Jul 18 19:34:37 2006 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by ciao.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1G2tSp-0005kT-1y for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Tue, 18 Jul 2006 19:34:31 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1G2tSo-0000wj-E8 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Tue, 18 Jul 2006 13:34:30 -0400 Original-Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1G2tSe-0000we-El for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 18 Jul 2006 13:34:20 -0400 Original-Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1G2tSd-0000wS-KM for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 18 Jul 2006 13:34:20 -0400 Original-Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1G2tSd-0000wP-Hh for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 18 Jul 2006 13:34:19 -0400 Original-Received: from [67.59.132.6] (helo=mail.agora-net.com) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS-1.0:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA:32) (Exim 4.52) id 1G2tVZ-00082W-7x for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 18 Jul 2006 13:37:21 -0400 Original-Received: from ttn by mail.agora-net.com with local (Exim 4.50) id 1G2tSc-0002i8-EG; Tue, 18 Jul 2006 13:34:18 -0400 Original-To: "Drew Adams" In-Reply-To: Original-Lines: 35 User-Agent: Gnus/5.09 (Gnus v5.9.0) Emacs/21.4 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:57279 Archived-At: "Drew Adams" writes: > On the other foot, isn't it maddeningly frustrating to have to > search out a node about how to look look up a topic in the > manual, and plod through relatively uninteresting lessons on `n' > and `p' to finally get to the heart of the matter? i don't think so. a good tutorial is comforting at the beginning like that, because review of familiar concepts (in this case "next" and "previous" being consistently and coherently accessible with `n' and `p', just like much the rest of emacs) eases the mind into accepting new ones. kind of like stretching before jogging. if the concepts are not familiar, then hey, bonus. new stuff to enjoy. if the concepts are familiar to the point of frustration, a few taps on (the familiar) `n' and you are on your way. remember, the active verb from the reader's pov is "to learn". novelty helps learning, but also overlapping review. that is the actual "heart of the matter". we cannot teach (whisk people to the destination), we can only make the journey pleasant (present things in a way that builds consistently upon the past). there is no real need to wow people w/ info's features, as cool as they are. there is, however, a need to prevent mental schism between info and other emacs subsystems. if the schism can be averted, people will wow themselves w/ what they find. bonus: they will be less likely to feel put upon, hoodwinked, manhandled maltreated, rushed-along, perturbed, railroaded, cajoled or coerced. IMHO, moving basic navigation commands to the end, as an afterthought, runs the risk of these misunderstandings arising. it's always easier to forego a feast than to forgive a famine. thi