* Editing email replies
@ 2002-08-30 3:15 pd
2002-08-30 14:54 ` Barry Margolin
0 siblings, 1 reply; 18+ messages in thread
From: pd @ 2002-08-30 3:15 UTC (permalink / raw)
I've been thinking about how to edit replies to MIME messages that use
multipart/alternative. For example, suppose the message has a text/plain
alternative and a text/html alternative, as shown below. When I insert some
plain text in my reply, I'd really like the resulting message to have the
two alternatives for the text before my insertion, then my insertion in
plain text, and then the two alternatives after my insertion.
In other words, I want to go from:
multipart/alternative
text/plain
text/html
to
multipart/mixed
multipart/alternative
text/plain
text/html
text/plain <--- my reply!
multipart/alternative
text/plain
text/html
I've shown this in more detail below, but that's the general idea.
Essentially, I want to split the alternative part into two, and put my
text/plain reply in between them.
So, is there a way to do this? I'm planning to use emacs, but I don't know
if there's a suitable mode for editing messages that does this.
Thanks very much,
-pd
Detailed example follows. I hope it's correct.
============= Before editing =============
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----BAR"
...
------BAR
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
This is the first line of the original message.
This is the second line of the original message.
------BAR
Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
<HTML>
<BODY>
<BR>This is the first line of the original message.
<BR>This is the second line of the original message.
</BODY>
</HTML>
------BAR
============= After editing =============
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="--FOO"
--FOO
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----BAR"
...
------BAR
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
This is the first line of the original message.
------BAR
Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
<HTML>
<BODY>
<BR>This is the first line of the original message.
</BODY>
</HTML>
------BAR
--FOO
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
My insertion between the first and second lines goes here.
--FOO
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----BAR"
------BAR
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
This is the second line of the original message.
------BAR
Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
<HTML>
<BODY>
<BR>This is the second line of the original message.
</BODY>
</HTML>
------BAR
--FOO
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 18+ messages in thread
* Re: Editing email replies
2002-08-30 3:15 Editing email replies pd
@ 2002-08-30 14:54 ` Barry Margolin
2002-08-30 15:38 ` Peter Davis
2002-08-30 15:51 ` Peter Davis
0 siblings, 2 replies; 18+ messages in thread
From: Barry Margolin @ 2002-08-30 14:54 UTC (permalink / raw)
In article <erBb9.37325$kp.567963@rwcrnsc52.ops.asp.att.net>,
pd <pd@world.std.com> wrote:
>I've been thinking about how to edit replies to MIME messages that use
>multipart/alternative. For example, suppose the message has a text/plain
>alternative and a text/html alternative, as shown below. When I insert some
>plain text in my reply, I'd really like the resulting message to have the
>two alternatives for the text before my insertion, then my insertion in
>plain text, and then the two alternatives after my insertion.
>
>In other words, I want to go from:
>
> multipart/alternative
> text/plain
> text/html
>
>to
>
> multipart/mixed
> multipart/alternative
> text/plain
> text/html
> text/plain <--- my reply!
> multipart/alternative
> text/plain
> text/html
This seems like it would be extremely difficult to automate, because Emacs
would have to determine which parts of the plain and HTML alternatives
correspond to each other, so that it can find the correct dividing points.
--
Barry Margolin, barmar@genuity.net
Genuity, Woburn, MA
*** DON'T SEND TECHNICAL QUESTIONS DIRECTLY TO ME, post them to newsgroups.
Please DON'T copy followups to me -- I'll assume it wasn't posted to the group.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 18+ messages in thread
* Re: Editing email replies
2002-08-30 14:54 ` Barry Margolin
@ 2002-08-30 15:38 ` Peter Davis
2002-08-30 16:34 ` Barry Margolin
2002-08-30 15:51 ` Peter Davis
1 sibling, 1 reply; 18+ messages in thread
From: Peter Davis @ 2002-08-30 15:38 UTC (permalink / raw)
Barry Margolin <barmar@genuity.net> writes:
> In article <erBb9.37325$kp.567963@rwcrnsc52.ops.asp.att.net>,
> pd <pd@world.std.com> wrote:
> >I've been thinking about how to edit replies to MIME messages that use
> >multipart/alternative. For example, suppose the message has a text/plain
> >alternative and a text/html alternative, as shown below. When I insert some
> >plain text in my reply, I'd really like the resulting message to have the
> >two alternatives for the text before my insertion, then my insertion in
> >plain text, and then the two alternatives after my insertion.
> >
> >In other words, I want to go from:
> >
> > multipart/alternative
> > text/plain
> > text/html
> >
> >to
> >
> > multipart/mixed
> > multipart/alternative
> > text/plain
> > text/html
> > text/plain <--- my reply!
> > multipart/alternative
> > text/plain
> > text/html
>
> This seems like it would be extremely difficult to automate, because Emacs
> would have to determine which parts of the plain and HTML alternatives
> correspond to each other, so that it can find the correct dividing points.
I agree that it seems difficult. Yet some e-mail programs do this (or
something like this, I guess). If someone sends me a message with
blue, sans-serif text, I can reply and put comments interspersed with
that text. The resulting message still has the original sender's text
in blue, sans-serif text, and my comments interspersed in Courier (or
some other plain text font).
Possibly this is because the program is displaying and editing the
text/html, and it only has to find the corresponding point in the
text/plain segment, rather than the other way around (editing the
text/plain, and trying to find the corresponding point in text/html).
I don't know, but somehow it works.
Thanks,
-pd
--
--------
Peter Davis
Funny stuff at http://www.pfdstudio.com
The artwork formerly shown as prints
List of resources for children's writers and illustrators at:
http://www.pfdstudio.com/cwrl.html
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 18+ messages in thread
* Re: Editing email replies
2002-08-30 14:54 ` Barry Margolin
2002-08-30 15:38 ` Peter Davis
@ 2002-08-30 15:51 ` Peter Davis
2002-08-31 16:21 ` Kai Großjohann
1 sibling, 1 reply; 18+ messages in thread
From: Peter Davis @ 2002-08-30 15:51 UTC (permalink / raw)
Barry Margolin <barmar@genuity.net> writes:
> In article <erBb9.37325$kp.567963@rwcrnsc52.ops.asp.att.net>,
> pd <pd@world.std.com> wrote:
> >I've been thinking about how to edit replies to MIME messages that use
> >multipart/alternative. For example, suppose the message has a text/plain
> >alternative and a text/html alternative, as shown below. When I insert some
> >plain text in my reply, I'd really like the resulting message to have the
> >two alternatives for the text before my insertion, then my insertion in
> >plain text, and then the two alternatives after my insertion.
> >
> >In other words, I want to go from:
> >
> > multipart/alternative
> > text/plain
> > text/html
> >
> >to
> >
> > multipart/mixed
> > multipart/alternative
> > text/plain
> > text/html
> > text/plain <--- my reply!
> > multipart/alternative
> > text/plain
> > text/html
>
> This seems like it would be extremely difficult to automate, because Emacs
> would have to determine which parts of the plain and HTML alternatives
> correspond to each other, so that it can find the correct dividing points.
Actually, I just tried this with a certain well-known commercial
e-mail package whose name starts with "E". What I got was a single
multipart/alternative section, containing a text/plain and a
text/html. However, the reply line I inserted had been inserted into
both parts! That seems even more complicated.
Thanks,
-pd
--
--------
Peter Davis
Funny stuff at http://www.pfdstudio.com
The artwork formerly shown as prints
List of resources for children's writers and illustrators at:
http://www.pfdstudio.com/cwrl.html
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 18+ messages in thread
* Re: Editing email replies
2002-08-30 15:38 ` Peter Davis
@ 2002-08-30 16:34 ` Barry Margolin
0 siblings, 0 replies; 18+ messages in thread
From: Barry Margolin @ 2002-08-30 16:34 UTC (permalink / raw)
In article <k7m8uzl3.fsf@bitstream.com>, Peter Davis <pd@world.std.com> wrote:
>
>Barry Margolin <barmar@genuity.net> writes:
>> In article <erBb9.37325$kp.567963@rwcrnsc52.ops.asp.att.net>,
>> pd <pd@world.std.com> wrote:
>> >I've been thinking about how to edit replies to MIME messages that use
>> >multipart/alternative. For example, suppose the message has a text/plain
>> >alternative and a text/html alternative, as shown below. When I insert some
>> >plain text in my reply, I'd really like the resulting message to have the
>> >two alternatives for the text before my insertion, then my insertion in
>> >plain text, and then the two alternatives after my insertion.
>> >
>> >In other words, I want to go from:
>> >
>> > multipart/alternative
>> > text/plain
>> > text/html
>> >
>> >to
>> >
>> > multipart/mixed
>> > multipart/alternative
>> > text/plain
>> > text/html
>> > text/plain <--- my reply!
>> > multipart/alternative
>> > text/plain
>> > text/html
>>
>> This seems like it would be extremely difficult to automate, because Emacs
>> would have to determine which parts of the plain and HTML alternatives
>> correspond to each other, so that it can find the correct dividing points.
>
>I agree that it seems difficult. Yet some e-mail programs do this (or
>something like this, I guess). If someone sends me a message with
>blue, sans-serif text, I can reply and put comments interspersed with
>that text. The resulting message still has the original sender's text
>in blue, sans-serif text, and my comments interspersed in Courier (or
>some other plain text font).
My guess is they're doing the following:
Discard the plain text
Render the HTML into a buffer
Add a quoting prefix to the buffer
Let you edit the buffer, word-processor style
Turn the buffer back into HTML and plain text alternatives.
--
Barry Margolin, barmar@genuity.net
Genuity, Woburn, MA
*** DON'T SEND TECHNICAL QUESTIONS DIRECTLY TO ME, post them to newsgroups.
Please DON'T copy followups to me -- I'll assume it wasn't posted to the group.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 18+ messages in thread
* Re: Editing email replies
2002-08-30 15:51 ` Peter Davis
@ 2002-08-31 16:21 ` Kai Großjohann
2002-08-31 23:18 ` Peter Davis
0 siblings, 1 reply; 18+ messages in thread
From: Kai Großjohann @ 2002-08-31 16:21 UTC (permalink / raw)
Peter Davis <pd@world.std.com> writes:
> Actually, I just tried this with a certain well-known commercial
> e-mail package whose name starts with "E". What I got was a single
> multipart/alternative section, containing a text/plain and a
> text/html. However, the reply line I inserted had been inserted into
> both parts! That seems even more complicated.
Wild guess: the E package threw away the text/plain alternative and
let you edit text/html. For sending, it took the text/html stuff
that you edited and sent a text/plain alternative of it.
You might wish to test it by replying to a message which has aaaaa in
the text/plain and bbbb in the text/html alternative :-)
kai
--
A large number of young women don't trust men with beards. (BFBS Radio)
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 18+ messages in thread
* Re: Editing email replies
2002-08-31 16:21 ` Kai Großjohann
@ 2002-08-31 23:18 ` Peter Davis
2002-09-01 2:02 ` Kevin A. Scaldeferri
` (2 more replies)
0 siblings, 3 replies; 18+ messages in thread
From: Peter Davis @ 2002-08-31 23:18 UTC (permalink / raw)
Kai.Grossjohann@CS.Uni-Dortmund.DE (Kai =?iso-8859-15?q?Gro=DFjohann?=) writes:
> Peter Davis <pd@world.std.com> writes:
>
> > Actually, I just tried this with a certain well-known commercial
> > e-mail package whose name starts with "E". What I got was a single
> > multipart/alternative section, containing a text/plain and a
> > text/html. However, the reply line I inserted had been inserted into
> > both parts! That seems even more complicated.
>
> Wild guess: the E package threw away the text/plain alternative and
> let you edit text/html. For sending, it took the text/html stuff
> that you edited and sent a text/plain alternative of it.
>
> You might wish to test it by replying to a message which has aaaaa in
> the text/plain and bbbb in the text/html alternative :-)
Seems likely that that's what it did. Still, I'd like *some* way to
edit such messages in emacs (with MH or gnus). I've actually had
people complain to me that when I reply to their messages, all the
formatting that they put in is lost.
Ideas?
-pd
--
--------
Peter Davis
Funny stuff at http://www.pfdstudio.com
List of resources for children's writers and illustrators at:
http://www.pfdstudio.com/cwrl.html
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 18+ messages in thread
* Re: Editing email replies
2002-08-31 23:18 ` Peter Davis
@ 2002-09-01 2:02 ` Kevin A. Scaldeferri
2002-09-01 2:58 ` those who know me have no need of my name
2002-09-02 16:05 ` Peter Davis
2002-09-01 5:17 ` Charles Muller
[not found] ` <mailman.1030857423.3550.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org>
2 siblings, 2 replies; 18+ messages in thread
From: Kevin A. Scaldeferri @ 2002-09-01 2:02 UTC (permalink / raw)
In article <wuq68vnf.fsf@bitstream.com>, Peter Davis <pd@world.std.com> wrote:
>Kai.Grossjohann@CS.Uni-Dortmund.DE (Kai =?iso-8859-15?q?Gro=DFjohann?=) writes:
>
>Seems likely that that's what it did. Still, I'd like *some* way to
>edit such messages in emacs (with MH or gnus). I've actually had
>people complain to me that when I reply to their messages, all the
>formatting that they put in is lost.
>
>Ideas?
Tell those people to shut up and stop their whining? ;-)
On this topic, what I'd like is a way to tell MH to discard the HTML
part in this case and just include the plain text portion in my reply.
--
======================================================================
Kevin Scaldeferri Calif. Institute of Technology
The INTJ's Prayer:
Lord keep me open to others' ideas, WRONG though they may be.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 18+ messages in thread
* Re: Editing email replies
2002-09-01 2:02 ` Kevin A. Scaldeferri
@ 2002-09-01 2:58 ` those who know me have no need of my name
2002-09-02 16:05 ` Peter Davis
1 sibling, 0 replies; 18+ messages in thread
From: those who know me have no need of my name @ 2002-09-01 2:58 UTC (permalink / raw)
in comp.mail.mh i read:
>On this topic, what I'd like is a way to tell MH to discard the HTML
>part in this case and just include the plain text portion in my reply.
sounds like you might prefer running all html parts through ``lynx -dump'',
and re-tag them as text/plain, on the way into your mailbox.
--
bringing you boring signatures for 17 years
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 18+ messages in thread
* Re: Editing email replies
2002-08-31 23:18 ` Peter Davis
2002-09-01 2:02 ` Kevin A. Scaldeferri
@ 2002-09-01 5:17 ` Charles Muller
[not found] ` <mailman.1030857423.3550.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org>
2 siblings, 0 replies; 18+ messages in thread
From: Charles Muller @ 2002-09-01 5:17 UTC (permalink / raw)
Peter Davis wrote:
> Seems likely that that's what it did. Still, I'd like *some* way to
> edit such messages in emacs (with MH or gnus). I've actually had
> people complain to me that when I reply to their messages, all the
> formatting that they put in is lost.
I wonder if you have tried the MEW ("Messaging in the Emacs World") package
that's coming through with a lot of Linux distros? It has a really
broad range of customization settings, and a help list where you get
fast and useful answers.
Chuck
---------------------------
Charles Muller <acmuller@gol.com>
Faculty of Humanities, Toyo Gakuen University
Digital Dictionary of Buddhism and CJKV-English Dictionary
[http://www.acmuller.net]
Mobile Phone: 090-9310-1787
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 18+ messages in thread
* Re: Editing email replies
2002-09-01 2:02 ` Kevin A. Scaldeferri
2002-09-01 2:58 ` those who know me have no need of my name
@ 2002-09-02 16:05 ` Peter Davis
2002-09-02 21:59 ` those who know me have no need of my name
` (3 more replies)
1 sibling, 4 replies; 18+ messages in thread
From: Peter Davis @ 2002-09-02 16:05 UTC (permalink / raw)
kevin@sue.its.caltech.edu (Kevin A. Scaldeferri) writes:
> In article <wuq68vnf.fsf@bitstream.com>, Peter Davis <pd@world.std.com> wrote:
>>Kai.Grossjohann@CS.Uni-Dortmund.DE (Kai =?iso-8859-15?q?Gro=DFjohann?=) writes:
>>
>>Seems likely that that's what it did. Still, I'd like *some* way to
>>edit such messages in emacs (with MH or gnus). I've actually had
>>people complain to me that when I reply to their messages, all the
>>formatting that they put in is lost.
>>
>>Ideas?
>
> Tell those people to shut up and stop their whining? ;-)
Well, I know I'm probably in a minority here, but I actually think
HTML e-mail is a pretty good idea. You can get much more readable,
and more *meaningful* content with HTML. Typographic conventions of
using boldface, italics, etc. evolved for a reason ... they improve
the readability and informativeness of text.
I agree that we're bombarded by HTML spam from users with flagrant
disregard for email etiquette, let alone typographic design. Still
that doesn't invalidate the medium.
Sorry. I work for a font and electronic publishing company, so this
is a favorite soapbox of mine.
-pd
--
--------
Peter Davis
Funny stuff at http://www.pfdstudio.com
List of resources for children's writers and illustrators at:
http://www.pfdstudio.com/cwrl.html
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 18+ messages in thread
* Re: Editing email replies
2002-09-02 16:05 ` Peter Davis
@ 2002-09-02 21:59 ` those who know me have no need of my name
2002-09-02 23:07 ` Kevin A. Scaldeferri
` (2 subsequent siblings)
3 siblings, 0 replies; 18+ messages in thread
From: those who know me have no need of my name @ 2002-09-02 21:59 UTC (permalink / raw)
[fu-t set]
in comp.mail.mh i read:
>Sorry. I work for a font and electronic publishing company, so this
>is a favorite soapbox of mine.
in which case you should think that html sucks, given how little actual
control exists over what the receiver will see.
--
bringing you boring signatures for 17 years
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 18+ messages in thread
* Re: Editing email replies
2002-09-02 16:05 ` Peter Davis
2002-09-02 21:59 ` those who know me have no need of my name
@ 2002-09-02 23:07 ` Kevin A. Scaldeferri
2002-09-03 1:14 ` Sacha Chua
2002-09-07 17:19 ` Benjamin Riefenstahl
3 siblings, 0 replies; 18+ messages in thread
From: Kevin A. Scaldeferri @ 2002-09-02 23:07 UTC (permalink / raw)
In article <sn0s4bu6.fsf@bitstream.com>, Peter Davis <pd@world.std.com> wrote:
>
>Well, I know I'm probably in a minority here, but I actually think
>HTML e-mail is a pretty good idea. You can get much more readable,
>and more *meaningful* content with HTML. Typographic conventions of
>using boldface, italics, etc. evolved for a reason ... they improve
>the readability and informativeness of text.
I hardly ever see people use HTML in their email for these purposes.
Usually they use it to make their text medium gray over a blue sky
background image, or some similar nonsense. (That's actually a
relatively tasteful, if pointless example. I've also seen some
incredible attrocious uses of a half dozen colors of text and such.)
Then there are the mail programs which think that every line should be
wrapped in DIV tags so that it looks exactly like the author saw
it... as long as you are using the same mail program as the author.
--
======================================================================
Kevin Scaldeferri Calif. Institute of Technology
The INTJ's Prayer:
Lord keep me open to others' ideas, WRONG though they may be.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 18+ messages in thread
* Re: Editing email replies
2002-09-02 16:05 ` Peter Davis
2002-09-02 21:59 ` those who know me have no need of my name
2002-09-02 23:07 ` Kevin A. Scaldeferri
@ 2002-09-03 1:14 ` Sacha Chua
2002-09-07 17:19 ` Benjamin Riefenstahl
3 siblings, 0 replies; 18+ messages in thread
From: Sacha Chua @ 2002-09-03 1:14 UTC (permalink / raw)
Peter Davis <pd@world.std.com> writes:
> Well, I know I'm probably in a minority here, but I actually think
> HTML e-mail is a pretty good idea. You can get much more readable,
> and more *meaningful* content with HTML. Typographic conventions of
> using boldface, italics, etc. evolved for a reason ... they improve
... or you can use Gnus and see smileys and _all_ *sorts* of /emphasized/
text. =) Seriously. Gnus is cool. And it comes with Emacs, too.
Why not HTML mail? Well, HTML mail calls on w3 for rendering - still a
bit slower than text. Also, many HTML messages are malformed, which
means I get quite a few warnings when rendering it.
Not everyone has a built-in HTML browser, too. What, would you so
easily ignore all the pine and mutt users who have to launch an
external process in order to read your mail? =) Not only that, a lot
of formatting gets munged when you translate it back to plain text.
And of course, I don't really trust HTML because of the sneaky things
it could do. On some popular operating systems, it could even lead to
a compromise of your system. =) Or think of webbugs - those little
images that tell another server that your e-mail account is valid,
read often, and ready for spam. What about Javascript? Pfft.
Still, properly used HTML can be really, really nice. I feel that
sending HTML should be a conscious choice, not the default. Plain text
is enough for many of our thoughts. <laugh> (There are people who send
me large .DOC files with _plain text_ inside it! Pfft.) For the people
who want more, well... they can mime-attach an HTML page. <g>
It's probably just me, but I find plain text more readable - no
one trying to do any fancy tricks with colors, bold, or fonts, or
whatever. ASCII art's probably the fanciest thing you can do with a
plain text message (and even that can be a bit unreliable since some
people use variable-width fonts). HTML is fine in the hands of people
who know what they're doing, but for the most part, people don't.
Still, I'm not going to force everyone else to use text/plain -
thankfully, Gnus takes care of all of that automatically (most of the
time, that is - w3 complains a fair bit). Yet another reason why Emacs
is good. =)
--
Sacha Chua <sacha@free.net.ph> - 4 BS CS Ateneo geekette
interests: emacs, gnu/linux, wearables, teaching compsci
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 18+ messages in thread
* Re: Editing email replies
[not found] ` <mailman.1030857423.3550.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org>
@ 2002-09-05 1:45 ` pd
0 siblings, 0 replies; 18+ messages in thread
From: pd @ 2002-09-05 1:45 UTC (permalink / raw)
"Charles Muller" <acmuller@gol.com> wrote in message
news:mailman.1030857423.3550.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org...
> Peter Davis wrote:
>
> > Seems likely that that's what it did. Still, I'd like *some* way to
> > edit such messages in emacs (with MH or gnus). I've actually had
> > people complain to me that when I reply to their messages, all the
> > formatting that they put in is lost.
>
> I wonder if you have tried the MEW ("Messaging in the Emacs World")
package
> that's coming through with a lot of Linux distros? It has a really
> broad range of customization settings, and a help list where you get
> fast and useful answers.
Thanks. I'll check it out. I'm in the Windows world, but perhaps it can be
made to live there too.
-pd
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 18+ messages in thread
* Re: Editing email replies
2002-09-02 16:05 ` Peter Davis
` (2 preceding siblings ...)
2002-09-03 1:14 ` Sacha Chua
@ 2002-09-07 17:19 ` Benjamin Riefenstahl
2002-09-08 17:43 ` pd
3 siblings, 1 reply; 18+ messages in thread
From: Benjamin Riefenstahl @ 2002-09-07 17:19 UTC (permalink / raw)
Hi Peter,
Peter Davis <pd@world.std.com> writes:
> Well, I know I'm probably in a minority here, but I actually think
> HTML e-mail is a pretty good idea. You can get much more readable,
> and more *meaningful* content with HTML.
Shouldn't that read "more meaningful form"? HTML does nothing about
the content as far as I see.
One could say that exactly because people should look at their
content, they should not distract themself and their readers with
extraneous form elements. In my experience HTML is very, very rarely
an improvement in email (or Usenet) messages.
so long, benny
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 18+ messages in thread
* Re: Editing email replies
2002-09-07 17:19 ` Benjamin Riefenstahl
@ 2002-09-08 17:43 ` pd
2002-09-10 12:36 ` Oliver Scholz
0 siblings, 1 reply; 18+ messages in thread
From: pd @ 2002-09-08 17:43 UTC (permalink / raw)
"Benjamin Riefenstahl" <Benjamin.Riefenstahl@epost.de> wrote in message
news:m3lm6demzz.fsf@benny-ppc.benny.crocodial.de...
> Hi Peter,
>
>
> Peter Davis <pd@world.std.com> writes:
> > Well, I know I'm probably in a minority here, but I actually think
> > HTML e-mail is a pretty good idea. You can get much more readable,
> > and more *meaningful* content with HTML.
>
> Shouldn't that read "more meaningful form"? HTML does nothing about
> the content as far as I see.
>
> One could say that exactly because people should look at their
> content, they should not distract themself and their readers with
> extraneous form elements. In my experience HTML is very, very rarely
> an improvement in email (or Usenet) messages.
I don't want to prolong this debate too much. However, I couldn't help but
notice that your reply has quoted part of mine, and contains two blocks of
text with a blank line between them. Is that form or content? Answer:
it's both! The fact that text is divided into paragraphs, or that documents
are divided into sections, possibly with headers in a different typeface, or
that lists and nested lists can be structured by indentation, etc. are both
form and content. These things can not be separated as easily as some
people think. HTML can help to communicate these things more clearly than
plain text.
-pd
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 18+ messages in thread
* Re: Editing email replies
2002-09-08 17:43 ` pd
@ 2002-09-10 12:36 ` Oliver Scholz
0 siblings, 0 replies; 18+ messages in thread
From: Oliver Scholz @ 2002-09-10 12:36 UTC (permalink / raw)
"pd" <pd@world.std.com> writes:
> "Benjamin Riefenstahl" <Benjamin.Riefenstahl@epost.de> wrote in message
> news:m3lm6demzz.fsf@benny-ppc.benny.crocodial.de...
>> Hi Peter,
>>
>>
>> Peter Davis <pd@world.std.com> writes:
>> > Well, I know I'm probably in a minority here, but I actually think
>> > HTML e-mail is a pretty good idea. You can get much more readable,
>> > and more *meaningful* content with HTML.
>>
>> Shouldn't that read "more meaningful form"? HTML does nothing about
>> the content as far as I see.
>>
>> One could say that exactly because people should look at their
>> content, they should not distract themself and their readers with
>> extraneous form elements. In my experience HTML is very, very rarely
>> an improvement in email (or Usenet) messages.
>
> I don't want to prolong this debate too much. However, I couldn't help but
> notice that your reply has quoted part of mine, and contains two blocks of
> text with a blank line between them. Is that form or content? Answer:
> it's both! The fact that text is divided into paragraphs, or that documents
> are divided into sections, possibly with headers in a different typeface, or
> that lists and nested lists can be structured by indentation, etc. are both
> form and content. These things can not be separated as easily as some
> people think. HTML can help to communicate these things more clearly than
> plain text.
[...]
I think, HTML-mail is rather a social problem. ("social" includes the
default behaviour of many MUAs here).
To have a html-tag or two for bold or italic text now and then is
something fairly innocent. And to have proper tables or visually
distinguished header-lines could be a real benefit. Sometimes, when
the information involved is very complex, even different font sizes
could be a good thing.
However, most HTML-mail I get is not that innocent. It takes usually
about three times the space the same mail takes in plain text. And for
what? For lots of unnecessary font- and size-specifications. I am not
interested in what the user at the other end thinks which is the most
readable font for her. And I am not interested in her favourite
background-color. I do know myself what font and what background color
are the best for my eyes. I hardly see any HTML-mail in which the HTML
is anything else but cumbersome and annoying.
It is possible to get much of the useful formatting with plain
text-messages: There is a simple, widely used markup-language for
*bold*, _underlined_ or /italic/ text.
+---------------+---------------+---------------+
|For tables |we have |this sort of |
+---------------+---------------+---------------+
|tables |with |ascii-graphics.|
+---------------+---------------+---------------+
If I have to write a long text with headings and sub-headings I
usually resort to different levels of indentation[1]. Gnus users can
have images displayed inline in the message. With Gnus it is even
possible to get a different font and fontification for code-snipplets
in messages. And as soon as UTF-8 is more common, we get lots of
graphics in mail.
I admit that all this is only a workaround. I seem to recall that I
saw an Elisp package somewhere that allows to send HTML-mail with Gnus
using a simple Wiki-like markup-language. Something like this would be
nice: If HTML were used only when meaningful, it could be a great
thing. But since we won't change the major MUAs, we are right to frown
upon HTML in mail and news. My personal experience is that I can not
persuade my friends to use another (better) MUA, but that I can
persuade/force them to turn HTML off.
BTW: does actually anyone use text/enriched in mail or news?
-- Oliver
Footnotes:
[1] And we have footnotes, too.
--
24 Fructidor an 210 de la Révolution
Liberté, Egalité, Fraternité!
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 18+ messages in thread
end of thread, other threads:[~2002-09-10 12:36 UTC | newest]
Thread overview: 18+ messages (download: mbox.gz follow: Atom feed
-- links below jump to the message on this page --
2002-08-30 3:15 Editing email replies pd
2002-08-30 14:54 ` Barry Margolin
2002-08-30 15:38 ` Peter Davis
2002-08-30 16:34 ` Barry Margolin
2002-08-30 15:51 ` Peter Davis
2002-08-31 16:21 ` Kai Großjohann
2002-08-31 23:18 ` Peter Davis
2002-09-01 2:02 ` Kevin A. Scaldeferri
2002-09-01 2:58 ` those who know me have no need of my name
2002-09-02 16:05 ` Peter Davis
2002-09-02 21:59 ` those who know me have no need of my name
2002-09-02 23:07 ` Kevin A. Scaldeferri
2002-09-03 1:14 ` Sacha Chua
2002-09-07 17:19 ` Benjamin Riefenstahl
2002-09-08 17:43 ` pd
2002-09-10 12:36 ` Oliver Scholz
2002-09-01 5:17 ` Charles Muller
[not found] ` <mailman.1030857423.3550.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org>
2002-09-05 1:45 ` pd
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