Re: What's the differences b/t M-x eshell and M-x shell.

Re: What's the differences b/t M-x eshell and M-x shell.

[Pascal J. Bourguignon]

Donghyun Cho <bigeyeguy@gmail.com> writes:

> I'm using eshell instead of shell.
>
> But I can't bring environmental variables to eshell.

The syntax is different.  eshell is a lisp shell:


Welcome to the Emacs shell

~ $ (getenv "HOME")
/home/pjb
~ $ 


> so I'm going to using original shell( M-x shell )
>
> Please let me know the differences between M-x eshell and M-x shell.

C-h f shell RET
C-h f eshell RET


shell runs bash (or whatever shell you configured).  

eshell is implemented in emacs lisp, and gives you direct access to
emacs lisp, which is a much better language than any shell language (but
scsh of course).

-- 
__Pascal Bourguignon__                     http://www.informatimago.com/

Re: What's the differences b/t M-x eshell and M-x shell.

[Sean McAfee]

pjb@informatimago.com (Pascal J. Bourguignon) writes:
> eshell is implemented in emacs lisp, and gives you direct access to
> emacs lisp, which is a much better language than any shell language (but
> scsh of course).

It's a pity, then, that eshell's documentation is worse than any other
shell's, by several orders of magnitude.

Re: What's the differences b/t M-x eshell and M-x shell.

[Xah Lee]

On Oct 9, 2:27 pm, Sean McAfee <eef...@gmail.com> wrote:
> p...@informatimago.com (Pascal J. Bourguignon) writes:
>
> > eshell is implemented in emacs lisp, and gives you direct access to
> > emacs lisp, which is a much better language than any shell language (but
> > scsh of course).
>
> It's a pity, then, that eshell's documentation is worse than any other
> shell's, by several orders of magnitude.

yeah... pretty bad.

it's soooo verbose. It assumes people are highschool students.

here's the url:
http://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/manual/html_node/eshell/index.html

it start with a elaborate intro
http://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/manual/html_node/eshell/What-is-Eshell_003f.html#What-is-Eshell_003f
telling people about the concept of a “shell”.

then it goes with the “verbs” concept.

i spend 20 sec trying to see what commands are actually there... my
effort just got to this dead end:
http://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/manual/html_node/eshell/Built_002dins.html#Built_002dins

and, like, 80% of the nodes are all empty.

little to no actual examples. If the doc actually just show 20
examples of the most common use of ls, cd, mkdir, cp, grep, etc
that'll immediately improve the doc some 100 fold.

pretty sad.

But what a great tool it is. The doc issue i wouldn't blame the author
John Wiegley.
Rather, i blame FSF... for various reasons, the culture of FSF... made
it that way.

recently been thinking more about this and scanning FSF dev list
again, just incredible inefficiency. I don't know even where to begin,
and if i just keep typing, within a min i'll probably be tagged a
destructive troll...

to begin, people are forced into using texinfo ... 30 old tech, today,
really nobody knows it, while really tons of alternatives even
counting org and muse mode's markdown/html features within emacs. But
to say texinfo should be phased out is immeditaly a stone wall that
cant go anywhere...

then, the whole gnu emacs manual is written in a elaborate verbose
style, as the mother of examples of how new dev should follow...

forgive me, to say this on a FSF owned forum, but recently i've been
thinking that it'd be a good experiment if Richard Stallman would
withdraw from the emacs dev list. Why not? The venerable Richard has
selected emacs maintainers, Stefan & Yidong. So Ricard, why not leave
the list and let them wholly run the show for a while? maybe with a 1
year agreed time that you come back and monitor it or back to the
helm. Am saying this because with you there, due to your status and
venerability, anything you say, has strong influence on the whole
list. People are afraid to say things or tech opinions if you happened
to have a word on xyz in your email. You (and me too) are getting old,
out of touch. The young devs, those make the world's tech google,
facebook, youtube, github, twitter... are running the show.

when i look at gnu emacs dev list, it's arguments, arguments,
arguments, among its developers, many i've been acquainted over the
years. The arguments are not really the sort that's purely technical
and respectfull, and it's not just between a few devs. It's like all
over, and some with bad words thrown about. Of course on a logical
level probably most still say it's still civil, but it really do hurt
feelings and exacerbate the debates. Tens, hundreds, of words throwing
back and forth. “You!”, “No YOU!” It's pretty ill. (and i thought i
being the troll am the only one having verbal fights with some emacs
developers)

most other open source projects, including many using GPL, on Google
Code or github, with integrated bug db, integrated comment for any
public joe, integrated web-interfaced svn/git, integrated with instant
msg, dev identies/profile, history, email, dev's blog/site/twitter,
all web 2.0 communication tech, instaneous and inter-connected down to
their cellphone, iphone, ipad, blackberry or whatnot, and all
typically so easy to use that one doesn't need to know any unix sys
admin skill to start a coding project and enjoy all these features.

Emacs is still 1990's plain text email list, manually hosted
maintained chron job'd version control system, static website, really
bad bug databe, really bad email archive (plain text search)... as i
can see these are really becoming major drag.

recently, the dev list discussed ibuffer. Reading it is like watching
a circus show. Long time developers can't find old discussions, keep
asking other to find it, then argue, then asking what was decided
before, and it turns out this has been discussed back in 2001... and
still pretty much no decision or no nothing is actually being done.
And this is not just isolated incidence. I read the dev list now and
then since 3 years ago... More than half of the issues almost went
like that. Quite a miracle that emacs 23.x is released and 24 coming
out.

am not sure other open source dev team such as maybe python, ruby,
linux, apache etc are like this... maybe most older tech projects are
like this... but am thinking perhaps Stefan & Yidong can start fresh
and change things a bit to move things faster. Maybe as a experiment
for a year.

this post is quickly typed. All errors and bad thoughts are just me.

 Xah ∑ xahlee.org ☄

Re: What's the differences b/t M-x eshell and M-x shell.

[despen]

Xah Lee <xahlee@gmail.com> writes:

> Rather, i blame FSF... for various reasons, the culture of FSF... made
> it that way.

Oh boy here you go again.

The ONLY projects I ever worked on that were 100% harmonious were
projects I did by myself.

I don't care if it's construction, software development, or
brain surgery.  People inevitably develop conflicts and differences
of opinion.

A good software developer learns how to work with others.
One of the things you have to do is accept others as imperfect.

Re: What's the differences b/t M-x eshell and M-x shell.

[Richard Riley]

despen@verizon.net writes:

> Xah Lee <xahlee@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> Rather, i blame FSF... for various reasons, the culture of FSF... made
>> it that way.
>
> Oh boy here you go again.
>
> The ONLY projects I ever worked on that were 100% harmonious were
> projects I did by myself.
>
> I don't care if it's construction, software development, or
> brain surgery.  People inevitably develop conflicts and differences
> of opinion.

Of course. And work together to solve them. Did anyone say any
different?

> A good software developer learns how to work with others.
> One of the things you have to do is accept others as imperfect.

In defence of Xah Lee : Nowhere did he say otherwise.

Re: What's the differences b/t M-x eshell and M-x shell.

[despen]

Richard Riley <rileyrg@googlemail.com> writes:

> despen@verizon.net writes:
>
>> Xah Lee <xahlee@gmail.com> writes:
>>
>>> Rather, i blame FSF... for various reasons, the culture of FSF... made
>>> it that way.
>>
>> Oh boy here you go again.
>>
>> The ONLY projects I ever worked on that were 100% harmonious were
>> projects I did by myself.
>>
>> I don't care if it's construction, software development, or
>> brain surgery.  People inevitably develop conflicts and differences
>> of opinion.
>
> Of course. And work together to solve them. Did anyone say any
> different?
>
>> A good software developer learns how to work with others.
>> One of the things you have to do is accept others as imperfect.
>
> In defence of Xah Lee : Nowhere did he say otherwise.

He did suggest that throwing the leader off the project
as a solution.

More important, the THINKS he sees problems with the project and
blames the "culture".  That's confrontational, that's not seeking
a solution.

Re: What's the differences b/t M-x eshell and M-x shell.

[Richard Riley]

despen@verizon.net writes:

> Richard Riley <rileyrg@googlemail.com> writes:
>
>> despen@verizon.net writes:
>>
>>> Xah Lee <xahlee@gmail.com> writes:
>>>
>>>> Rather, i blame FSF... for various reasons, the culture of FSF... made
>>>> it that way.
>>>
>>> Oh boy here you go again.
>>>
>>> The ONLY projects I ever worked on that were 100% harmonious were
>>> projects I did by myself.
>>>
>>> I don't care if it's construction, software development, or
>>> brain surgery.  People inevitably develop conflicts and differences
>>> of opinion.
>>
>> Of course. And work together to solve them. Did anyone say any
>> different?
>>
>>> A good software developer learns how to work with others.
>>> One of the things you have to do is accept others as imperfect.
>>
>> In defence of Xah Lee : Nowhere did he say otherwise.
>
> He did suggest that throwing the leader off the project
> as a solution.

He suggested that that leader causes hold ups in development. You
clearly disagree. No where did he say that teams cant work successfully.

> More important, the THINKS he sees problems with the project and
> blames the "culture".  That's confrontational, that's not seeking
> a solution.

He suggested solutions. Whether I agree or not is immaterial. Putting
words into his mouth and blindly supporting existing culture seems to
reinforce his points rather than disprove them,

Re: What's the differences b/t M-x eshell and M-x shell.

[despen]

Richard Riley <rileyrg@googlemail.com> writes:

> despen@verizon.net writes:
>
>> Richard Riley <rileyrg@googlemail.com> writes:
>>
>>> despen@verizon.net writes:
>>>
>>>> Xah Lee <xahlee@gmail.com> writes:
>>>>
>>>>> Rather, i blame FSF... for various reasons, the culture of FSF... made
>>>>> it that way.
>>>>
>>>> Oh boy here you go again.
>>>>
>>>> The ONLY projects I ever worked on that were 100% harmonious were
>>>> projects I did by myself.
>>>>
>>>> I don't care if it's construction, software development, or
>>>> brain surgery.  People inevitably develop conflicts and differences
>>>> of opinion.
>>>
>>> Of course. And work together to solve them. Did anyone say any
>>> different?
>>>
>>>> A good software developer learns how to work with others.
>>>> One of the things you have to do is accept others as imperfect.
>>>
>>> In defence of Xah Lee : Nowhere did he say otherwise.
>>
>> He did suggest that throwing the leader off the project
>> as a solution.
>
> He suggested that that leader causes hold ups in development. You
> clearly disagree. No where did he say that teams cant work successfully.

If you resort to throwing someone off a team,
you are taking the last resort.  You've given up.

Blaming the culture is even more general.
It's like saying the whole team has to go.

I have no opinion about RMS.

>> More important, the THINKS he sees problems with the project and
>> blames the "culture".  That's confrontational, that's not seeking
>> a solution.
>
> He suggested solutions. Whether I agree or not is immaterial. Putting
> words into his mouth and blindly supporting existing culture seems to
> reinforce his points rather than disprove them,

I don't know why you take what I said that way.
Banning someone is giving up.

I am only willing to judge by results.
Years ago, XEmacs was superior to Emacs.
Now it seems to me the Emacs team is firing on all cylinders.
They caught up to and surpassed XEmacs.

I also believe it's the responsibility of new-comers to adapt
to the team as it is.

If Xah has more to contribute than RMS, he could join the team
and show it by example.   If he really believes it's impossible,
let him fork the code and draw his own team.

Re: What's the differences b/t M-x eshell and M-x shell.

[Xah Lee]

eshell is written entirely in elisp.

practically speaking, that means when you are on Windows and don't
want to deal with cygwin or whatnot extra, you have eshell with almost
all the unix ls, cat, stuff.

• 〈Emacs Shell Tutorial (bash, cmd.exe, PowerShell)〉
http://xahlee.org/emacs/emacs_unix.html

you can get and set environment variables within emacs by:

; show env var named path
(getenv "PATH")

; example of setting env var named “path”
; by appending a new path to existing path
(setenv "PATH"
  (concat
   "C:\\cygwin\\usr\\local\\bin" ";"
   "C:\\cygwin\\usr\\bin" ";"
   "C:\\cygwin\\bin" ";"
   (getenv "PATH")
  )
)

detail at:

• 〈Emacs and Microsoft Windows Tips〉
http://xahlee.org/emacs/emacs_mswin.html

 Xah ∑ xahlee.org ☄