From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Uday S Reddy Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.help Subject: Re: line-move-visual Date: Mon, 07 Jun 2010 09:19:27 +0100 Organization: Janet Usenet Reading Service. Message-ID: References: <87pr07qjio.fsf@thinkpad.tsdh.de> <878w6vq7ew.fsf@thinkpad.tsdh.de> <871vcmhq79.fsf@wivenhoe.ul.ie> <580d5f23-e251-483f-9752-7e77b1ca2fb7@40g2000pry.googlegroups.com> <2a7dc148-e2cc-4681-9d8c-ccd1140aa6d7@j36g2000prj.googlegroups.com> <089883ee-0a63-4cb4-a0ec-d2fe4e71cc03@y18g2000prn.googlegroups.com> <87wruco5yq.fsf@lola.goethe.zz> <87d3w4dw68.fsf@thinkpad.tsdh.de> NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: dough.gmane.org 1291829251 31161 80.91.229.12 (8 Dec 2010 17:27:31 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 8 Dec 2010 17:27:31 +0000 (UTC) To: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Original-X-From: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Wed Dec 08 18:27:25 2010 Return-path: Envelope-to: geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1PQNnW-0001eb-P7 for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Wed, 08 Dec 2010 18:27:22 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:34905 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1PQNnW-0001kt-0Y for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Wed, 08 Dec 2010 12:27:22 -0500 Original-Path: usenet.stanford.edu!syros.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!news2.euro.net!feeder.news-service.com!tudelft.nl!txtfeed1.tudelft.nl!dedekind.zen.co.uk!zen.net.uk!hamilton.zen.co.uk!feed4.jnfs.ja.net!feed2.jnfs.ja.net!jnfs.ja.net!times.reader.netnews.ja.net!not-for-mail Original-Newsgroups: gnu.emacs.help,comp.emacs,comp.lang.lisp Original-Lines: 46 Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: gromit.cs.bham.ac.uk Original-X-Trace: north.jnrs.ja.net 1275895175 25172 147.188.193.16 (7 Jun 2010 07:19:35 GMT) Original-X-Complaints-To: usenet@north.jnrs.ja.net Original-NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 7 Jun 2010 07:19:35 +0000 (UTC) User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.9.1.9) Gecko/20100317 Thunderbird/3.0.4 In-Reply-To: <87d3w4dw68.fsf@thinkpad.tsdh.de> Original-Xref: usenet.stanford.edu gnu.emacs.help:178700 comp.emacs:99939 comp.lang.lisp:288762 X-BeenThere: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.help:75694 Archived-At: On 6/6/2010 4:21 PM, Tassilo Horn wrote: >> In this particular instance, the customization needed is not a big >> deal: set line-move-visual to nil. Almost everybody can do it. But >> the time they had to spend in discovering that they needed to change >> it is what has been significant. > > IMO, the first thing a new emacs user should learn is using the help > facilities. So after seeing that `C-n' moved point not to the next > (logical) line as it always did should be a reflexive `C-h C-n': Note that we are talking about the old emacs users, not the new ones. (The C-n compromise was apparently made to help the new Emacs users!) An old emacs user might see a long logical line only very rarely, and he might take quite a while to realize that anything had changed. As Mark Crispin explained, he had to purposefully go looking for it by doing M- C-n on a number of Emacs versions to discover that something had changed. I had to hear of Mark's experience before I started suspecting that there could be vulnerabilities in VM. (I accept that using `next-line' in elisp code is not a clever thing to do, but we live in the world of "free software" where lots of people contribute.) How much elisp code might still be there that has this vulnerability? We won't know. Just as an experiment, I went to the emacs-23.2 lisp directory and did a grep for next-line. There were 91 hits. How many of them are safe? I myself noticed the changed C-n very quickly because I work with Emacs debugger a lot, where long lines are common. First I thought it was kind of cute, then I got annoyed because I had to find new ways of skipping over bytecode pieces that span lots of lines, and now I am alarmed as I think of the vulnerabilities that might exist in elisp code. If I used keyboard macros a whole lot (which I don't), then I would have been even more affected. However, it didn't occur to me that I could freely set `line-move-visual' to nil and all the problems would disappear. I thought that the setting was probably mixed up with word wrapping and visual-line-mode and all that stuff that I care about. It was only after Stefan himself said: "Yes, it's inconsistent, yes, it's a compromise, no not everybody likes it. Then (setq line-move-visual nil) in your .emacs and live happily ever after." ... only then did I understand that the emacs devs had done a completely pointless thing that I could easily revert. Cheers, Uday