From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Rupert Swarbrick Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: please make line-move-visual nil Date: Tue, 26 May 2009 13:36:44 +0100 Message-ID: References: <48914.130.55.118.19.1242592120.squirrel@webmail.lanl.gov> <66C6BA04EBCF4B6DAED69E851627D852@us.oracle.com> <18970.25868.549514.194223@a1ihome1.kph.uni-mainz.de> <20090526095247.GA2919@muc.de> NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="=-=-="; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature" X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1243341765 7618 80.91.229.12 (26 May 2009 12:42:45 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 26 May 2009 12:42:45 +0000 (UTC) To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Tue May 26 14:42:38 2009 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.50) id 1M8vzJ-00072I-8W for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Tue, 26 May 2009 14:42:38 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:39174 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1M8vzI-0003qI-I8 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Tue, 26 May 2009 08:42:36 -0400 Original-Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1M8vuE-0001mL-EZ for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 26 May 2009 08:37:22 -0400 Original-Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1M8vu9-0001iu-Ai for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 26 May 2009 08:37:21 -0400 Original-Received: from [199.232.76.173] (port=39063 helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1M8vu8-0001ih-UU for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 26 May 2009 08:37:17 -0400 Original-Received: from main.gmane.org ([80.91.229.2]:52296 helo=ciao.gmane.org) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS-1.0:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1M8vu8-0007XR-CU for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 26 May 2009 08:37:16 -0400 Original-Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1M8vu4-0000Pw-43 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 26 May 2009 12:37:12 +0000 Original-Received: from cpc1-cove3-0-0-cust907.sol2.cable.ntl.com ([86.20.31.140]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Tue, 26 May 2009 12:37:12 +0000 Original-Received: from rswarbrick by cpc1-cove3-0-0-cust907.sol2.cable.ntl.com with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Tue, 26 May 2009 12:37:12 +0000 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ Original-Lines: 62 Original-X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: cpc1-cove3-0-0-cust907.sol2.cable.ntl.com User-Agent: Gnus/5.110011 (No Gnus v0.11) Emacs/23.0.94 (gnu/linux) X-detected-operating-system: by monty-python.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6, seldom 2.4 (older, 4) X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:111110 Archived-At: --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Lennart Borgman writes: > On Tue, May 26, 2009 at 11:52 AM, Alan Mackenzie wrote: >> >> I disagree with Eli that defaults are "only" defaults: they're the >> settings we impose on new users, and are critically important. =C2=A0If >> they're bad defaults, they could irritate and exasperate users for >> months or years before those users eventually change them. =C2=A0(C-n >> adding new lines onto the ends of files (which was the default in >> Emacs <=3D 20) springs to mind here). > > I guess new users will in most cases appreciate the change (since it > makes Emacs behave more like other editing environments), but old > timers will a bit more often dislike it. I agree that this makes Emacs behave more like other editors. But I'm not sure it's something that new users will feel strongly about: How much is emacs _really_ "like other editing environments"? I mean, all the keyboard shortcuts are different. Killing and yanking is very different from Ctrl-C Ctrl-V. Using multiple buffers gets confusing very quickly if you're used to the Windows-style MDI etc. etc. etc. So my point is that making this (rather corner-case) behaviour more like gedit or notepad isn't necessarily a relevant goal: I don't believe that it makes much difference to new users, who are learning a significantly different approach to editing anyway [1]. Now, this post doesn't claim to have any bearing on any of the other arguments put forward in the discussion. My personal feeling is that Drew's suggestion of making a distinction between "programming" and "text" based on major-mode is very sensible. Hope this makes some sense, Rupert [1] Actually, I do have some data here: I'm a Uni student and my housemate started using Emacs at my suggestion a couple of months ago to run inferior octave processes. When I mentioned this thread to him this morning he grinned and said he'd come across the (old) behaviour, but decided that it made sense on balance. So far as I know, he didn't read any info files or help strings about it, so if it made sense without maybe it's not such a bad design! --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iJwEAQECAAYFAkob4l0ACgkQRtd/pJbYVoZvEAQAqdSYYxIJwR49z73YoKEinv/M 5T5jRFvcTsexLMKnqWE5ACiGne8qDxtazGtfl4r7oZahoIjUlZF9kJmUYo5zx6V6 YnH6WyKnixHbJireSNTn7EAtP3REoLxy1AL/fmD/sD+L1tYT2QfFPY5Z5fWcw3pq L+/NDZkMsmfeiq/SZfE= =TRSS -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=--