From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Miles Bader Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: describe-bindings: ^L, bad order, naming Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2005 07:42:28 +0900 Message-ID: References: <200511112049.jABKn9r23432@raven.dms.auburn.edu> <5CFC1BD0-4EE5-438E-AFC5-EC025E11450A@gmail.com> Reply-To: snogglethorpe@gmail.com, miles@gnu.org NNTP-Posting-Host: main.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Trace: sea.gmane.org 1131749103 25798 80.91.229.2 (11 Nov 2005 22:45:03 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2005 22:45:03 +0000 (UTC) Cc: Luc Teirlinck , Drew Adams , Emacs-Devel ' Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Fri Nov 11 23:45:00 2005 Return-path: Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by ciao.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Eahc0-00062T-RU for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Fri, 11 Nov 2005 23:43:13 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Eahc0-0003Uw-8i for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Fri, 11 Nov 2005 17:43:12 -0500 Original-Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1EahbM-0003FA-Sd for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 11 Nov 2005 17:42:33 -0500 Original-Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1EahbJ-0003Dn-N7 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 11 Nov 2005 17:42:32 -0500 Original-Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1EahbJ-0003DZ-Gd for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 11 Nov 2005 17:42:29 -0500 Original-Received: from [64.233.184.196] (helo=wproxy.gmail.com) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1EahbJ-00085H-M6 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 11 Nov 2005 17:42:29 -0500 Original-Received: by wproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id 69so1331030wri for ; Fri, 11 Nov 2005 14:42:28 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=aomzrEQrliVhbJeC0c8YGZdouSa1FVBhrLJkjyYSi/WtNfLDiRcZWoNkFoqShIL8XjnjRw3v0m/XYRVAWe3n7x3XXHrDRh58UTeVilRfaeL9CDHyNeoq19ltj8UP1gCuDZToq1MeAhdOgjXqsNaBqUM18ROBXnCLkgsMP8xfjNU= Original-Received: by 10.54.160.9 with SMTP id i9mr1950437wre; Fri, 11 Nov 2005 14:42:28 -0800 (PST) Original-Received: by 10.54.160.4 with HTTP; Fri, 11 Nov 2005 14:42:28 -0800 (PST) Original-To: David Reitter In-Reply-To: <5CFC1BD0-4EE5-438E-AFC5-EC025E11450A@gmail.com> Content-Disposition: inline X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:45783 Archived-At: 2005/11/12, David Reitter : > Sorry to say, but yes, it is obscure. Perhaps for mac users it is obscure, but it is well supported in Emacs -- many commands apply to pages separated by ^L > Something like this is - nowadays - displayed in a graphical way. This is not macwrite. Sorry. Emacs can accomodate beginners to a degree, but I often get the impression you want to _replace_ well-worn Emacs conventions with whatever dancing elephants you're used to from the mac, and that isn't something that's always desirable. We want to _help_ new users, but that doesn't always mean simply copying other interfaces; often it means simply offering a bridge to make it easier for new users to understand Emacs conventions. Displaying ^L characters as a horizontal line might be visually nicer (for everybody, not just beginners), but in normal text (source buffers etc), hiding the fact that it's simply a character which can be inserted or deleted etc. like any other, may actually be harmful to beginners. If an Emacs convention is scary and distressing to new users, maybe that's something to consider, but I don't think ^L is in that category, it's simply something that they may not be used to -- the presence of ^L characters isn't going to notably inconvenience anyone, even if they may not be cognizant of all the ways they could take advantage of them. [A compromise might be to display a ^L at the beginning of the line, but a magic-horizontal-rule following it. This would be even nicer if emacs had real support for things like horizontal rules of course... I've often wanted to add new "line drawing" glyph types...] -miles -- Do not taunt Happy Fun Ball.