should xterm-mouse-mode be on by default?

should xterm-mouse-mode be on by default?

[Dan Nicolaescu]

It seems that xterm-mouse-mode is on by default now. 

xterm-mouse-mode is missing some very useful functionality (at least
IMO): 
 - it is not possible to double-click to select a word/line/etc.
 - it is not possible to select text with the mouse in emacs and then
 use mouse-2 to paste in another xterm, or emacs. How would you copy
 text from an emacs running in an ssh session in an xterm? 

A lot of users use these features, so IMO it is not a good idea to
turn on xterm-mouse-mode by default at this point. 

        --dan

Re: should xterm-mouse-mode be on by default?

[Luc Teirlinck]

   A lot of users use these features, so IMO it is not a good idea to
   turn on xterm-mouse-mode by default at this point. 

I was the one who enabled Xterm Mouse mode by default.  But I did it
on request, because I knew how to do it without confusing Custom.  I
personally recommended against it, because of problems similar to the
ones you cite, as well as other problems.

Obviously, I could easily revert my changes if Richard would change
his mind on the issue.

Sincerely,

Luc.

Re: should xterm-mouse-mode be on by default?

[Miles Bader]

On 4/13/05, Dan Nicolaescu <dann@ics.uci.edu> wrote:
> A lot of users use these features, so IMO it is not a good idea to
> turn on xterm-mouse-mode by default at this point.

FWIW, the "native" xterm mouse behavior can still be used even when
emacs xterm-mouse-mode is enabled, by using the shift-key in
conjunction with the mouse.  [I suppose many users will not know this
however.]

-Miles
-- 
Do not taunt Happy Fun Ball.

Re: should xterm-mouse-mode be on by default?

[Richard Stallman]

    xterm-mouse-mode is missing some very useful functionality (at least
    IMO): 
     - it is not possible to double-click to select a word/line/etc.
     - it is not possible to select text with the mouse in emacs and then
     use mouse-2 to paste in another xterm, or emacs. How would you copy
     text from an emacs running in an ssh session in an xterm? 

    A lot of users use these features, so IMO it is not a good idea to
    turn on xterm-mouse-mode by default at this point. 

I don't follow the logic.  While the failure to implement some mouse
features is clearly a drawback, why would it be better to implement
none than to implement some?  I don't see it.

Re: should xterm-mouse-mode be on by default?

[Dan Nicolaescu]

Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> writes:

  >     xterm-mouse-mode is missing some very useful functionality (at least
  >     IMO): 
  >      - it is not possible to double-click to select a word/line/etc.
  >      - it is not possible to select text with the mouse in emacs and then
  >      use mouse-2 to paste in another xterm, or emacs. How would you copy
  >      text from an emacs running in an ssh session in an xterm? 
  > 
  >     A lot of users use these features, so IMO it is not a good idea to
  >     turn on xterm-mouse-mode by default at this point. 
  > 
  > I don't follow the logic.  While the failure to implement some mouse
  > features is clearly a drawback, why would it be better to implement
  > none than to implement some?  I don't see it.

The argument is like this: a lot of users ONLY use the mouse in an xterm
to select text and then use mouse-2 to paste it in another
xterm/another application. Not being able to do this makes the mouse
not very useful, and the user would blame emacs for this. 

Yes, it is still possible to use shift-mouse to access the normal
xterm copy/paste functionality, but there are few problems with that:
      - as Miles said, most users would not know about this
      - makes the xterm running emacs behave inconsistently with all
      other xterms one might use at the same time
      - using the mouse and the keyboard at the same time is not very
      convenient 


      --dan

Re: should xterm-mouse-mode be on by default?

[Luc Teirlinck]

Richard Stallman wrote:

   I don't follow the logic.  While the failure to implement some mouse
   features is clearly a drawback, why would it be better to implement
   none than to implement some?  I don't see it.

Did you try out Xterm Mouse mode for any prolonged period of time,
performing non-trivial tasks?

Anybody who uses Xterm Mouse mode _needs_ to know about the SHIFT
functionality.  That is, needs to have read either the
xterm-mouse-mode docstring or `(emacs)XTerm Mouse'.  Otherwise, the
most basic mouse functionality, killing and yanking, does not work
anymore (except _inside_ your Emacs session).  Even knowing about
SHIFT, it is a real nuisance.

The lack of the usual visual feedback (Emacs can not track the mouse,
even with Xterm Mouse mode enabled), can also be very confusing,
except to knowledgeable users.

Sincerely,

Luc.

Re: should xterm-mouse-mode be on by default?

[Kai Großjohann]

Currently, when xterm mouse mode is on, unshifted clicks do something
special, and shifted clicks do as if xterm mouse mode was off.

How about providing an option to reverse this?  Then shifted clicks
would access the special xterm mouse mode function, and unshifted
clicks would do as if xterm mouse mode was off.

Kai

Re: should xterm-mouse-mode be on by default?

[Stephan Stahl]

Hi Kai.

kai@emptydomain.de (Kai Großjohann) said:
> How about providing an option to reverse this?  Then shifted clicks
> would access the special xterm mouse mode function, and unshifted
> clicks would do as if xterm mouse mode was off.

This is not possible to do from within emacs because it is xterm that
controlls this aspect..
-- 
Stephan Stahl

Re: should xterm-mouse-mode be on by default?

[Richard Stallman]

    Did you try out Xterm Mouse mode for any prolonged period of time,
    performing non-trivial tasks?

No, I have never used it.  I normally use Emacs on text consoles, and
the last thing I want to do is use the mouse.  It is supposed to make
Emacs handle the mouse in the usual way when running under an xterm,
right?

    Anybody who uses Xterm Mouse mode _needs_ to know about the SHIFT
    functionality.  That is, needs to have read either the
    xterm-mouse-mode docstring or `(emacs)XTerm Mouse'.  Otherwise, the
    most basic mouse functionality, killing and yanking, does not work
    anymore (except _inside_ your Emacs session).

I don't understand why that should be so.  Would you please explain?
Doesn't Xterm Mouse mode communicate selections to X in the usual way?

    The lack of the usual visual feedback (Emacs can not track the mouse,
    even with Xterm Mouse mode enabled), can also be very confusing,
    except to knowledgeable users.

Why is this worse that with Xterm Mouse mode turned off?

Re: should xterm-mouse-mode be on by default?

[Richard Stallman]

    The argument is like this: a lot of users ONLY use the mouse in an xterm
    to select text and then use mouse-2 to paste it in another
    xterm/another application. Not being able to do this makes the mouse
    not very useful, and the user would blame emacs for this. 

Why would they not be able to do this?
It isn't obvious.

Re: should xterm-mouse-mode be on by default?

[Dan Nicolaescu]

Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> writes:

  >     The argument is like this: a lot of users ONLY use the mouse in an xterm
  >     to select text and then use mouse-2 to paste it in another
  >     xterm/another application. Not being able to do this makes the mouse
  >     not very useful, and the user would blame emacs for this. 
  > 
  > Why would they not be able to do this?
  > It isn't obvious.

Because the a selection done with the mouse when xterm-mouse-mode is
active is not available to X. It is only available to Emacs, so it is
possible to use the mouse to copy between 2 emacs windows running in
the same terminal frame, but X know nothing about the selection. 

Re: should xterm-mouse-mode be on by default?

[Andreas Schwab]

Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> writes:

> Doesn't Xterm Mouse mode communicate selections to X in the usual way?

It can't, since Emacs does not know how to contact the X server.

Andreas.

-- 
Andreas Schwab, SuSE Labs, schwab@suse.de
SuSE Linux Products GmbH, Maxfeldstraße 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany
Key fingerprint = 58CA 54C7 6D53 942B 1756  01D3 44D5 214B 8276 4ED5
"And now for something completely different."

Re: should xterm-mouse-mode be on by default?

[David Kastrup]

Dan Nicolaescu <dann@ics.uci.edu> writes:

> Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> writes:
>
>   >     The argument is like this: a lot of users ONLY use the mouse in an xterm
>   >     to select text and then use mouse-2 to paste it in another
>   >     xterm/another application. Not being able to do this makes the mouse
>   >     not very useful, and the user would blame emacs for this. 
>   > 
>   > Why would they not be able to do this?
>   > It isn't obvious.
>
> Because the a selection done with the mouse when xterm-mouse-mode is
> active is not available to X. It is only available to Emacs, so it is
> possible to use the mouse to copy between 2 emacs windows running in
> the same terminal frame, but X know nothing about the selection. 

Isn't there a way to reoffer the selection?

-- 
David Kastrup, Kriemhildstr. 15, 44793 Bochum

Re: should xterm-mouse-mode be on by default?

[Luc Teirlinck]

   No, I have never used it.  I normally use Emacs on text consoles, and
   the last thing I want to do is use the mouse.  It is supposed to make
   Emacs handle the mouse in the usual way when running under an xterm,
   right?

To me, the most basic mouse functionality, killing and yanking feels a
lot more "usual" with Xterm Mouse mode _disabled_.

       Anybody who uses Xterm Mouse mode _needs_ to know about the SHIFT
       functionality.  That is, needs to have read either the
       xterm-mouse-mode docstring or `(emacs)XTerm Mouse'.  Otherwise, the
       most basic mouse functionality, killing and yanking, does not work
       anymore (except _inside_ your Emacs session).

   I don't understand why that should be so.  Would you please explain?
   Doesn't Xterm Mouse mode communicate selections to X in the usual way?

No, Andreas already explained why it could not possibly.  In `emacs -nw',
Emacs does not communicate with X.  When running on Emacs on a remote
machine over a slow connection, Emacs communication with X is
_excessively_ slow (that is why one runs the remote Emacs with `emacs -nw'
in the first place).

       The lack of the usual visual feedback (Emacs can not track the mouse,
       even with Xterm Mouse mode enabled), can also be very confusing,
       except to knowledgeable users.

   Why is this worse that with Xterm Mouse mode turned off?

If Xterm Mouse mode is off and you are (for instance) dragging the
mouse, the region selected for copying gets highlighted while you are
dragging.  If Xterm mouse mode is on, the user can not see the region
being selected, there is no highlighting until you release the mouse.
Moreover, point does not get updated fast enough.  So if you click
away from point and start dragging, you have to remember the other
bound of the region (where you first clicked), because you only see it
on release of the mouse.

Sincerely,

Luc.

Re: should xterm-mouse-mode be on by default?

[Luc Teirlinck]

>From my previous message:

   If Xterm mouse mode is on, the user can not see the region
   being selected, there is no highlighting until you release the mouse.

Unless you hold down the SHIFT key, of course, because then you get
the xterm functionality.

Sincerely,

Luc.

Re: should xterm-mouse-mode be on by default?

[Richard Stallman]

    Because the a selection done with the mouse when xterm-mouse-mode is
    active is not available to X. It is only available to Emacs, so it is
    possible to use the mouse to copy between 2 emacs windows running in
    the same terminal frame, but X know nothing about the selection. 

I did not realize it had this disadvantage.  It is a serious one.

I think we should put the default back to off.

Re: should xterm-mouse-mode be on by default?

[Nick Roberts]

 >     Because the a selection done with the mouse when xterm-mouse-mode is
 >     active is not available to X. It is only available to Emacs, so it is
 >     possible to use the mouse to copy between 2 emacs windows running in
 >     the same terminal frame, but X know nothing about the selection. 
 > 
 > I did not realize it had this disadvantage.  It is a serious one.

But, X selection is still available using the shift key.

 > I think we should put the default back to off.

Its a question of giving priority to Emacs features or Xterm features. Within
Emacs, the mouse is used more often for Emacs so it seems more natural that
Emacs gets priority there.


Nick

Re: should xterm-mouse-mode be on by default?

[Dan Nicolaescu]

Nick Roberts <nickrob@snap.net.nz> writes:

  >  >     Because the a selection done with the mouse when xterm-mouse-mode is
  >  >     active is not available to X. It is only available to Emacs, so it is
  >  >     possible to use the mouse to copy between 2 emacs windows running in
  >  >     the same terminal frame, but X know nothing about the selection. 
  >  > 
  >  > I did not realize it had this disadvantage.  It is a serious one.
  > 
  > But, X selection is still available using the shift key.

Well, that is the problem, that the selection is available _by
default_ only when using the shift key. This makes emacs inconsistent
with the rest of the applications a user normally runs. And it is
inconsistent in one of the very useful (and used) functions. 

  >  > I think we should put the default back to off.
  > 
  > Its a question of giving priority to Emacs features or Xterm
  > features. Within Emacs, the mouse is used more often for Emacs so
  > it seems more natural that Emacs gets priority there.

But the price to pay in inconsistency and inconvenience seems to
big... 

       --dan

Re: should xterm-mouse-mode be on by default?

[Miles Bader]

On 4/16/05, Nick Roberts <nickrob@snap.net.nz> wrote:
> Its a question of giving priority to Emacs features or Xterm features. Within
> Emacs, the mouse is used more often for Emacs so it seems more natural that
> Emacs gets priority there.

This is _very_ dependent on your style of editing.  I've tried
xterm-mouse-mode on and off, and I find I prefer "off", largely for
the reasons stated in this thread [the default xterm "interapp
cut-n-paste" behavior is more useful; the xterm-mouse-mode behavior
generally quite clunky feeling, esp. the lack of region dragging].

I might feel differently If it were possible to have a sort of
"clicks-only" half-xterm-mouse-mode, or to fix the misfeatures of the
current "full" mouse-mode [e.g., get drag events for region dragging;
contact X server for cut-n-paste even in -nw mode] -- but neither
seems practical, because they would require changes in xterm (and a
fair amount of effort to implement for uncertain gain).

-Miles
-- 
Do not taunt Happy Fun Ball.

Re: should xterm-mouse-mode be on by default?

[Richard Stallman]

    Its a question of giving priority to Emacs features or Xterm features. Within
    Emacs, the mouse is used more often for Emacs so it seems more natural that
    Emacs gets priority there.

It is a big incompatibility with usual xterm functionality,
and it isn't very compatible with non-xterm Emacs functionality.
That's too problematical to be on by default.

Re: should xterm-mouse-mode be on by default?

[Luc Teirlinck]

Richard Stallman wrote:

       Its a question of giving priority to Emacs features or Xterm
       features. Within Emacs, the mouse is used more often for Emacs
       so it seems more natural that Emacs gets priority there.

   It is a big incompatibility with usual xterm functionality,
   and it isn't very compatible with non-xterm Emacs functionality.
   That's too problematical to be on by default.

Shall I go ahead and undo the part of my changes that enabled it by
default?

Sincerely,

Luc.

Re: should xterm-mouse-mode be on by default?

[Richard Stallman]

    Shall I go ahead and undo the part of my changes that enabled it by
    default?

Yes, please do.