From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Drew Adams Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: RE: Casting as wide a net as possible (was: First draft of the Emacs website) Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2015 10:56:31 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="__1449773793115236966abhmp0001.oracle.com" X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1449773834 15284 80.91.229.3 (10 Dec 2015 18:57:14 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2015 18:57:14 +0000 (UTC) To: John Yates , Emacs developers Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Thu Dec 10 19:57:02 2015 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1a76Ok-0004hf-9W for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Thu, 10 Dec 2015 19:57:02 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:43973 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1a76Oj-0006zE-Nw for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Thu, 10 Dec 2015 13:57:01 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:44831) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1a76OP-0006xw-1D for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 10 Dec 2015 13:56:42 -0500 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1a76OL-0006cq-OC for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 10 Dec 2015 13:56:40 -0500 Original-Received: from userp1040.oracle.com ([156.151.31.81]:41646) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1a76OL-0006cl-Gj for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 10 Dec 2015 13:56:37 -0500 Original-Received: from aserv0022.oracle.com (aserv0022.oracle.com [141.146.126.234]) by userp1040.oracle.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2/Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2) with ESMTP id tBAIuX0I014597 (version=TLSv1 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Thu, 10 Dec 2015 18:56:34 GMT Original-Received: from aserv0122.oracle.com (aserv0122.oracle.com [141.146.126.236]) by aserv0022.oracle.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id tBAIuXMM009522 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 10 Dec 2015 18:56:33 GMT Original-Received: from abhmp0001.oracle.com (abhmp0001.oracle.com [141.146.116.7]) by aserv0122.oracle.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id tBAIuXPi025755; Thu, 10 Dec 2015 18:56:33 GMT In-Reply-To: X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.9 (901082) [OL 12.0.6691.5000 (x86)] X-Source-IP: aserv0022.oracle.com [141.146.126.234] X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.4.x-2.6.x [generic] X-Received-From: 156.151.31.81 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:196044 Archived-At: --__1449773793115236966abhmp0001.oracle.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable FWIW, I don't disagree with much of what you said, John. I, for one, never = suggested that "if a would be user does not drink the Lisp CoolAid then (s)= he is not welcome to use our editor". =C2=A0 I also did not suggest that we pit Lisp against other languages with argume= nts about superiority. (RMS suggested that, to some degree.) =C2=A0 What I suggested it that Emacs is particularly about customizing, and Lisp,= yes, is a part of that. And it is a part not because one has to code Lisp = to customize Emacs (that's false), but because one can customize Emacs more= powerfully and more flexibly using Lisp. =C2=A0 I said that I think that we should mention what some important Lisp feature= s offer to Emacs - essential features that make Emacs what it is. =C2=A0 I think your post indicates a somewhat black-&-white, and limiting, view of= both the newbies we should be welcoming and how we should do so. =C2=A0 My only point is that Lisp features really do make Emacs what it is. To poi= nt out what Emacs is necessarily means pointing out some of those features = (IMO).=20 =C2=A0 This does not imply a language war or an electric kool-aid acid test. Nor d= oes it imply that potential users who might never be interested in some of = those features will be, or should be, excluded or turned off. Far from it. =C2=A0 I would hope that our site would be not just a self-indulgent love fest, a litany of all the things we - the advanced, deeply committed users - love about Emacs.... Do you seriously want to adopt the stance that if a would be user does not drink the Lisp CoolAid then (s)he is not welcome to use our editor?=C2=A0 Or at least (s)he has to get past our proselytizing? A newbie following up a suggestion that (s)he checkout an editor called Emacs should not be assailed by a religious pitch about how (s)he should lust to use Emacs because its extension language is superior to that used in other editors.=C2=A0=20 ... For those who are interested (eg the 13 year old Drew postulated) there are many easily discovered resources on the web describing Emacs, Lisp, eLisp, etc.=C2=A0 We could easily include on our site a curated list of links to the best of such resources.=C2=A0 If we feel that there does not yet exist a sufficiently effusive description of (e)Lisp we can write one and link to it. --__1449773793115236966abhmp0001.oracle.com Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

FWIW= , I don't disagree with much of what you said, John. I, for one, never sugg= ested that "if a would be user does not drink the Lisp CoolAid then= (s)he is not welcome to use our editor".

 

I also did not suggest that we pit Lisp against other langu= ages with arguments about superiority. (RMS suggested that, to some degree.= )

 

What I suggested it that Emacs is= particularly about customizing, and Lisp, yes, is a part of that. A= nd it is a part not because one has to code Lisp to customize= Emacs (that's false), but because one can customize Emacs mo= re powerfully and more flexibly using Lisp.

 

<= span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Trebuchet MS","sans-serif";colo= r:#244061'>I said that I think that we should mention what some important L= isp features offer to Emacs - essential features that make Emacs wha= t it is.

 <= /o:p>

I think your post indicate= s a somewhat black-&-white, and limiting, view of both the newbies we s= hould be welcoming and how we should do so.

 

<= span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Trebuchet MS","sans-serif";colo= r:#244061'>My only point is that Lisp features really do make Emacs what it= is. To point out what Emacs is necessarily means pointing ou= t some of those features (IMO).

=  

Th= is does not imply a language war or an electric kool-aid acid test. Nor doe= s it imply that potential users who might never be interested in some of th= ose features will be, or should be, excluded or turned off. Far from it.

 

I would hope that our site would be not just a self-indulgent
love = fest, a litany of all the things we - the advanced, deeply
committed use= rs - love about Emacs....
Do you se= riously want to adopt the stance that if a would be user
does not drink = the Lisp CoolAid then (s)he is not welcome to use
our editor?  Or a= t least (s)he has to get past our proselytizing?

=


A newbie= following up a suggestion that (s)he checkout an editor
called Emacs sh= ould not be assailed by a religious pitch about how
(s)he should lust to= use Emacs because its extension language is
superior to that used in ot= her editors.  <= /p>

...

For those who are interested (eg the 13 year old Drew pos= tulated)
there are many easily discovered resources on the web describin= g
Emacs, Lisp, eLisp, etc.  We could easily include on our site acurated list of links to the best of such resources.  If we feel
= that there does not yet exist a sufficiently effusive description
of (e)= Lisp we can write one and link to it.

--__1449773793115236966abhmp0001.oracle.com--