From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Dmitry Gutov Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: discoverability, better defaults and which-key in Emacs Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2024 00:03:35 +0200 Message-ID: References: <874jetaxri.fsf@jeremybryant.net> <87le84oqbd.fsf@yahoo.com> <87plxdpsxw.fsf@posteo.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="8438"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird Cc: Jeremy Bryant , justin@burkett.cc, Emacs Devel To: Philip Kaludercic , Po Lu Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Sun Feb 04 23:04:54 2024 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1rWkbc-0001vy-Eb for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sun, 04 Feb 2024 23:04:53 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1rWkaa-0001JE-Mz; Sun, 04 Feb 2024 17:03:48 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1rWkaY-0001Hz-W9 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 04 Feb 2024 17:03:47 -0500 Original-Received: from wout4-smtp.messagingengine.com ([64.147.123.20]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1rWkaX-0006me-6h for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 04 Feb 2024 17:03:46 -0500 Original-Received: from compute3.internal (compute3.nyi.internal [10.202.2.43]) by mailout.west.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 968903200A2D; Sun, 4 Feb 2024 17:03:41 -0500 (EST) Original-Received: from mailfrontend1 ([10.202.2.162]) by compute3.internal (MEProxy); Sun, 04 Feb 2024 17:03:42 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gutov.dev; h=cc :cc:content-transfer-encoding:content-type:content-type:date :date:from:from:in-reply-to:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version :references:reply-to:subject:subject:to:to; s=fm2; t=1707084220; x=1707170620; bh=xGItAbfYfG8VBUXFYgDpJGHV5M77idaWWORtj/zUhfI=; b= Zd5GPKZUFkeVThgW5fHFGGMa+xqrXopWGXF+3TWApeTc6p7DLwHhtt+YeAcmQAo1 apAU/1PxSXn1WNZ+IrIQFZuS+WECWZch8Q8p6Codr/+phZRBAUyp8FxCIj5XEa9s uU0c1j3Yvk5vTTN9v4qAWbOVAmPogVT59EnC7WyD328W+VjTSrjlr+vXc98wvRtQ CuKzsUMOwe/f/dLBpvnatWFkwSPzlj2Wb67366BchO8fyObWcry6ldhJZXyWJF7E m1lWZGFE3ZPesnQlTDeeU+XhruuB3VuP/v9owQ3W/8LLxM30I4U8xxp1+0Hwgyc8 D+MFptu8eEkXjzwkycGWAQ== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:cc:content-transfer-encoding :content-type:content-type:date:date:feedback-id:feedback-id :from:from:in-reply-to:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version :references:reply-to:subject:subject:to:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy :x-me-sender:x-me-sender:x-sasl-enc; s=fm3; t=1707084220; x= 1707170620; bh=xGItAbfYfG8VBUXFYgDpJGHV5M77idaWWORtj/zUhfI=; b=k gp+hrvv2kFWFdNRtQEdzDpsyTnWkvDpEXJE9bCKqRwJNYqP27CsDHiVUVx+78CBR 5mIjx5I4KrA4K9Dq8piHIv2kwIhOWIyZUxa645W92F/z1XQblxhWpsFAAuERBVR/ E6knlQFmM7UU+/q84WanslW7WXyN0QgaTHwXac/2xzVTYXuitqc7dyA6FYHAd1LD TkTif5Oa9p4oIVhDeoCWOD/68rNTrxdTNuf18Id0joBfpSR8G5yyjS2FmGTdNIhU NDmixUUIgyqyX1zSCHlOS0XUt/dX+Agzkh0XDArmYmie2NwGpiRpiCurS24GJdiL JX+jBjQC6bfG5UyFjumvw== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Received: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedvkedrfedukedgudehhecutefuodetggdotefrod ftvfcurfhrohhfihhlvgemucfhrghsthforghilhdpqfgfvfdpuffrtefokffrpgfnqfgh necuuegrihhlohhuthemuceftddtnecusecvtfgvtghiphhivghnthhsucdlqddutddtmd enucfjughrpefkffggfgfuvfevfhfhjggtgfesthejredttddvjeenucfhrhhomhepffhm ihhtrhihucfiuhhtohhvuceoughmihhtrhihsehguhhtohhvrdguvghvqeenucggtffrrg htthgvrhhnpeefkeehueetieegveeltdejfeehfeehheejheekuefhfeefleevffelheef hfdvveenucffohhmrghinhepghhithhhuhgsrdgtohhmnecuvehluhhsthgvrhfuihiivg eptdenucfrrghrrghmpehmrghilhhfrhhomhepughmihhtrhihsehguhhtohhvrdguvghv X-ME-Proxy: Feedback-ID: i0e71465a:Fastmail Original-Received: by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA; Sun, 4 Feb 2024 17:03:38 -0500 (EST) Content-Language: en-US In-Reply-To: <87plxdpsxw.fsf@posteo.net> Received-SPF: pass client-ip=64.147.123.20; envelope-from=dmitry@gutov.dev; helo=wout4-smtp.messagingengine.com X-Spam_score_int: -36 X-Spam_score: -3.7 X-Spam_bar: --- X-Spam_report: (-3.7 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H5=-1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, URIBL_SBL_A=0.1 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:315867 Archived-At: On 03/02/2024 15:40, Philip Kaludercic wrote: > Po Lu writes: > >> Jeremy Bryant writes: >> >>> Here is a suggestion - include which-key in core and potentially enable >>> by for new users. >>> >>> I understand it is in ELPA already. >>> >>> Author Justin has expressed openness to the idea in >>> https://github.com/justbur/emacs-which-key/issues/355 >> I don't think enabling it by default is all that desirable, since its >> popups are far more intrusive than keystrokes are when echoed, but >> moving it to core is a decent idea. > I second this concern, it also promotes the inefficient practice of > inspecting keymaps by waiting for the idle timer to be triggered. What if instead of having the help on a timer, the timer would add a small hint in the echo about how to invoke help (i.e. press C-h)? The interface for displaying help could be which-key (it seems to look pretty enough), or just the current 'C-h' help, depending on the settings. The result, though, is that everybody learns to press 'C-h' when they want to explore what the current prefix map contains and not just wait for the timer.