From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Drew Adams Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.bugs Subject: bug#16617: 24.3.50; REGRESSION: `C-q ?' pops up annoying *Char Help* buffer Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2014 09:25:19 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: References: <> <<83ppky9pyn.fsf@gnu.org>> <<533DB732.70704@dancol.org>> <<83k3b5a69r.fsf@gnu.org>> NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1396628793 9513 80.91.229.3 (4 Apr 2014 16:26:33 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2014 16:26:33 +0000 (UTC) Cc: sdl.web@gmail.com, 16617@debbugs.gnu.org To: Eli Zaretskii , Daniel Colascione Original-X-From: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Fri Apr 04 18:26:26 2014 Return-path: Envelope-to: geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1WW6wi-0003Iv-Sy for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Fri, 04 Apr 2014 18:26:25 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:51089 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1WW6wi-0008Bh-6b for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Fri, 04 Apr 2014 12:26:24 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:34904) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1WW6wW-00086N-EN for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Fri, 04 Apr 2014 12:26:21 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1WW6wM-0003V9-VU for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Fri, 04 Apr 2014 12:26:12 -0400 Original-Received: from debbugs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.43]:34417) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1WW6wM-0003V5-S0 for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Fri, 04 Apr 2014 12:26:02 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-debbugs by debbugs.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1WW6wL-0005U8-Vt for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Fri, 04 Apr 2014 12:26:02 -0400 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Resent-From: Drew Adams Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Fri, 04 Apr 2014 16:26:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 16617 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: Original-Received: via spool by 16617-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B16617.139662874321052 (code B ref 16617); Fri, 04 Apr 2014 16:26:01 +0000 Original-Received: (at 16617) by debbugs.gnu.org; 4 Apr 2014 16:25:43 +0000 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:35599 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1WW6w0-0005TN-UO for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 04 Apr 2014 12:25:42 -0400 Original-Received: from userp1040.oracle.com ([156.151.31.81]:24891) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1WW6vw-0005TC-DQ for 16617@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 04 Apr 2014 12:25:37 -0400 Original-Received: from acsinet21.oracle.com (acsinet21.oracle.com [141.146.126.237]) by userp1040.oracle.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2/Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2) with ESMTP id s34GPNb0026442 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Fri, 4 Apr 2014 16:25:24 GMT Original-Received: from userz7022.oracle.com (userz7022.oracle.com [156.151.31.86]) by acsinet21.oracle.com (8.14.4+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id s34GPKiV018256 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Fri, 4 Apr 2014 16:25:21 GMT Original-Received: from abhmp0013.oracle.com (abhmp0013.oracle.com [141.146.116.19]) by userz7022.oracle.com (8.14.5+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id s34GPKcp015101; Fri, 4 Apr 2014 16:25:20 GMT In-Reply-To: <<83k3b5a69r.fsf@gnu.org>> X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.8 (707110) [OL 12.0.6680.5000 (x86)] X-Source-IP: acsinet21.oracle.com [141.146.126.237] X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 3.x X-Received-From: 140.186.70.43 X-BeenThere: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org List-Id: "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.bugs:87752 Archived-At: > Not sure I agree about '?', but in any case this is NOT the main part > of Drew's complaints. He says that help text should not be shown at > all, ever. No, I did NOT say that at all. You seem to have trouble reading the bug report. I said that THIS bug is ONLY that the help text is shown for `?' in contexts where `?' is not a help character. It's about `?'. And NOT about all contexts. And certainly NOT about no help text "at all, ever". Those are strawman misrepresentations of this bug report. You complain that I repeat myself, but you don't seem to be able to read what is before your eyes, whether the first time or the Nth time. Yes, evidently repeating and rephrasing has not helped. What else can I do to get you to not misread or misrepresent what I have said so clearly and explicitly? I specifically EXCLUDED the case where `?' is a help character from THIS bug report, even though my personal opinion is that also in that case, yes, `C-q' should quote it. Just as it does for `C-h', when it is a help char (which is most of the time). Why you would insist upon a different behavior for `C-q ?' versus `C-q C-h', in contexts where `?' and `C-h' are help chars, is beyond me. But asking for the former to be treated like the latter in such contexts is explicitly NOT part of THIS bug report. This one is only about restoring `C-q ?' to quoting when `?' is NOT a help char. How to get this across to you? Or do you perhaps hear that message clearly but stubbornly refuse to acknowledge it, choosing instead to reject an imaginary, strawman report (Drew "says that help text should not be shown at all, ever")? If I really thought, as you claim, that such help text should never be shown, why would I bother to point out specific problems with the implementation of that help-text display (e.g., flash/no-see for nil `pop-up-frames'; non-removal of separate frame for non-nil `pop-up-frames')? Those observances are to help you IMPROVE the implementation of that help-text display. It is clearly not something that I reject in general. But THIS bug is only about that display being inappropriate in certain contexts (most contexts, as it turns out). I mentioned such help-text display problems only in passing - you can ignore them for THIS bug. > _That_ is certainly not a regression, as Emacs have > behaved like that since about forever. I also doubt that that is true. Certainly in Emacs 20 `C-q ?' inserts `?' when `?' is not a help char. IOW, THIS regression is not present in Emacs 20. And I don't know a mode to test (e.g. for Emacs 20) whether `C-q ?' also inserts `?' when `?' is a help char AND the mode is not read-only. Do you? And `grep' does not find "Char Help" anywhere in the Emacs 20 lisp or C files. So it's not clear to me that in Emacs 20 `C-q ?' ever shows "that help text". Or any help text. So even beyond THIS regression, my guess is that NONE of the problems I mentioned are present in Emacs 20. The same might even be true for Emacs 21, but I don't have that version anymore, to test. As I said in the original bug report, this regression goes back to at least Emacs 22. It does not go back to Emacs 20, and certainly not "about forever". And it is so unlikely that someone would stumble upon this bug that I am not surprised if this has not been reported before, even if the regression has been present since Emacs 22.