[BUG] CVS HEAD "find-file-confirm-inexistent-file" in lisp/files.el

[BUG] CVS HEAD "find-file-confirm-inexistent-file" in lisp/files.el

[Randal L. Schwartz]

This is a broken new feature (misfeature)?

First, the spelling is wrong.  You want nonexistent, not inexistent.

Second, the default is *different* than the prepatched behavior.  This scared
me enough to go find out what happened.  If you add new behavior, please
default to previous behavior, or prepare to explain why the change is needed.

Third, the variable isn't customizable.  What year is this, 1998?

Please back this out of CVS HEAD and prepare a proper change.

-- 
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Re: [BUG] CVS HEAD "find-file-confirm-inexistent-file" in lisp/files.el

[Randal L. Schwartz]

>>>>> "Randal" == Randal L Schwartz <merlyn@stonehenge.com> writes:

Randal> This is a broken new feature (misfeature)?

Randal> First, the spelling is wrong.  You want nonexistent, not inexistent.

Randal> Second, the default is *different* than the prepatched behavior.  This scared
Randal> me enough to go find out what happened.  If you add new behavior, please
Randal> default to previous behavior, or prepare to explain why the change is needed.

Randal> Third, the variable isn't customizable.  What year is this, 1998?

Randal> Please back this out of CVS HEAD and prepare a proper change.

This would be directed at "monnier".  Thank you.

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Re: [BUG] CVS HEAD "find-file-confirm-inexistent-file" in lisp/files.el

[Richard Stallman]

    Second, the default is *different* than the prepatched behavior.  This scared
    me enough to go find out what happened.  If you add new behavior, please
    default to previous behavior, or prepare to explain why the change is needed.

I said to install the new feature, but not enable it by default.
Was it enabled by default?

Re: [BUG] CVS HEAD "find-file-confirm-inexistent-file" in lisp/files.el

[Randal L. Schwartz]

>>>>> "Richard" == Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> writes:

Richard> I said to install the new feature, but not enable it by default.
Richard> Was it enabled by default?

Yes, it was enabled by default, or I wouldn't have even noticed.

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Re: [BUG] CVS HEAD "find-file-confirm-inexistent-file" in lisp/files.el

[Johan Bockgård]

Also, it doesn't play well with partial-completion-mode as it
currently stands.

"d" is not accepted as input:

    (partial-completion-mode 1)
    (completing-read ": " '("a" "b" "c") nil 'confirm-only)

Re: [BUG] CVS HEAD "find-file-confirm-inexistent-file" in lisp/files.el

[Richard Stallman]

I made the default nil, and I made it a defcustom.

Re: [BUG] CVS HEAD "find-file-confirm-inexistent-file" in lisp/files.el

[Stefan Monnier]

> Also, it doesn't play well with partial-completion-mode as it
> currently stands.

> "d" is not accepted as input:

>     (partial-completion-mode 1)
>     (completing-read ": " '("a" "b" "c") nil 'confirm-only)

Should be fixed now (please reset find-file-confirm-inexistent-file to
t before checking it, of course).


        Stefan

Re: [BUG] CVS HEAD "find-file-confirm-inexistent-file" in lisp/files.el

[Randal L. Schwartz]

>>>>> "Stefan" == Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> writes:

Stefan> Should be fixed now (please reset find-file-confirm-inexistent-file to
Stefan> t before checking it, of course).

The name is still spelled wrong.  NEVER in my years as a human being
in the North American English world have I heard "inexistent".

It's always been "nonexistent".  Please fix the spelling before release.

-- 
Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095
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Re: [BUG] CVS HEAD "find-file-confirm-inexistent-file" in lisp/files.el

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: merlyn@stonehenge.com (Randal L. Schwartz)
> Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2007 19:31:03 -0700
> 
> The name is still spelled wrong.  NEVER in my years as a human being
> in the North American English world have I heard "inexistent".
> 
> It's always been "nonexistent".  Please fix the spelling before release.

As someone who claims such a good knowledge of the English language,
please in the future try to be less rude in your email messages (I
mean your original report in particular).  People who work on Emacs
don't deserve this, even when they make mistakes that look stupid and
unbecoming to you.

Re: [BUG] CVS HEAD "find-file-confirm-inexistent-file" in lisp/files.el

[Richard Stallman]

    It's always been "nonexistent".  Please fix the spelling before release.

Yes.

Would someone please ack when this is fixed?

Re: [BUG] CVS HEAD "find-file-confirm-inexistent-file" in lisp/files.el

[Juanma Barranquero]

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On 7/6/07, Randal L. Schwartz <merlyn@stonehenge.com> wrote:

> The name is still spelled wrong.  NEVER in my years as a human being
> in the North American English world have I heard "inexistent".
>
> It's always been "nonexistent".  Please fix the spelling before release.

According to the American Heritage Dictionary:

http://www.bartleby.com/61/25/I0122500.html

SYLLABICATION:	in·ex·is·tent
PRONUNCIATION:	  ng-zstnt
ADJECTIVE:	Having no existence; nonexistent.

It's uncommon, but it's not wrong. That's not an argument for or
against the change, but against your claim that it is a spelling
error.

             Juanma

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Re: [BUG] CVS HEAD "find-file-confirm-inexistent-file" in lisp/files.el

[Randal L. Schwartz]

>>>>> "Juanma" == Juanma Barranquero <lekktu@gmail.com> writes:

Juanma> According to the American Heritage Dictionary:

Juanma> http://www.bartleby.com/61/25/I0122500.html

Juanma> SYLLABICATION:	in·ex·is·tent
Juanma> PRONUNCIATION:	  ng-zstnt
Juanma> ADJECTIVE:	Having no existence; nonexistent.

Juanma> It's uncommon, but it's not wrong. That's not an argument for or
Juanma> against the change, but against your claim that it is a spelling
Juanma> error.

Yes, it's legal.  But it's wrong by common usage.  Googling:

  about 6,640,000 for nonexistent
  about 773,000 for inexistent

That's a factor of nearly 10 there.  (And yes, I know those are actually
approximations, but the same bias factors out of both sides.)

The point is to use familiar words when you can.

-- 
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Re: [BUG] CVS HEAD "find-file-confirm-inexistent-file" in lisp/files.el

[Juanma Barranquero]

On 7/9/07, Randal L. Schwartz <merlyn@stonehenge.com> wrote:

> The point is to use familiar words when you can.

No, the point is that you said:

"First, the spelling is wrong.  You want nonexistent, not inexistent."

And then:

"The name is still spelled wrong.  NEVER in my years as a human being
in the North American English world have I heard "inexistent". It's
always been "nonexistent".  Please fix the spelling before release."

We wouldn't be discussing if you had said: "Inexistent is uncommon;
please use nonexistent, which is much more familiar to the average
user."

             Juanma

Re: [BUG] CVS HEAD "find-file-confirm-inexistent-file" in lisp/files.el

[Randal L. Schwartz]

>>>>> "Juanma" == Juanma Barranquero <lekktu@gmail.com> writes:

Juanma> We wouldn't be discussing if you had said: "Inexistent is uncommon;
Juanma> please use nonexistent, which is much more familiar to the average
Juanma> user."

I wasn't inconsistent here.  It's true still that I had never heard of
inexistent, and therefore assumed it was wrong.  As the replies showed,
I was wrong.  However, it's still the unusual spelling, and the most
common spelling should clearly be prefered.

I'm not sure what you're objecting to at this point.  Maybe nothing.

-- 
Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095
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Re: [BUG] CVS HEAD "find-file-confirm-inexistent-file" in lisp/files.el

[Juanma Barranquero]

On 7/10/07, Randal L. Schwartz <merlyn@stonehenge.com> wrote:

> I'm not sure what you're objecting to at this point.  Maybe nothing.

Same that Eli was objecting: the original rudeness (made more poignant
by you being wrong, though you being correct wouldn't make it more
palatable).

             Juanma

Re: [BUG] CVS HEAD "find-file-confirm-inexistent-file" in lisp/files.el

[Randal L. Schwartz]

>>>>> "Juanma" == Juanma Barranquero <lekktu@gmail.com> writes:

Juanma> On 7/10/07, Randal L. Schwartz <merlyn@stonehenge.com> wrote:
>> I'm not sure what you're objecting to at this point.  Maybe nothing.

Juanma> Same that Eli was objecting: the original rudeness (made more poignant
Juanma> by you being wrong, though you being correct wouldn't make it more
Juanma> palatable).

To be rude, it would have to be directed at the person.  I was pointing out a
failed process and a failed result in the most direct manner possible.  If the
person can't distinguish themselves from their results, that's an issue for
them, not me.  And if you're contributing as a committer to a large project,
you'd better have proper processes, *and* an ability to take heat for failure
to comply.  I'm not willing to be responsible for *your* feelings.  I will
promise to not attack you personally, but I *am* going to do what it takes for
the shared result to be effective.

-- 
Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095
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Re: [BUG] CVS HEAD "find-file-confirm-inexistent-file" in lisp/files.el

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: merlyn@stonehenge.com (Randal L. Schwartz)
> Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2007 06:29:19 -0700
> Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org
> 
> >>>>> "Juanma" == Juanma Barranquero <lekktu@gmail.com> writes:
> 
> Juanma> On 7/10/07, Randal L. Schwartz <merlyn@stonehenge.com> wrote:
> >> I'm not sure what you're objecting to at this point.  Maybe nothing.
> 
> Juanma> Same that Eli was objecting: the original rudeness (made more poignant
> Juanma> by you being wrong, though you being correct wouldn't make it more
> Juanma> palatable).
> 
> To be rude, it would have to be directed at the person.  I was pointing out a
> failed process and a failed result in the most direct manner possible.  If the
> person can't distinguish themselves from their results, that's an issue for
> them, not me.

Sigh.  I have learned from hard experience that when someone tells me
they were offended by my rudeness, it's time for apologies and
rewording, not for ``it's your problem'' type of counter-attack, even
if I think I didn't say anything wrong.  Isn't it enough that two
people with quite different cultural background living half-world
apart were hurt by your wording?  Isn't it possible that what was
meant to point at ``a failed process and a failed result'' could be
reasonably read as a rude attack directed at all and every one of the
developers personally?

> And if you're contributing as a committer to a large project,
> you'd better have proper processes, *and* an ability to take heat for failure
> to comply.

We _can_ take heat, but it doesn't mean you must test us every time.

As for proper processes, show me one that will completely avoid bugs
during development, and I'm sure we will adopt it right on the spot.

> I *am* going to do what it takes for the shared result to be
> effective.

I think you would see the same efficiency if your original message
were less aggressive.

Re: [BUG] CVS HEAD "find-file-confirm-inexistent-file" in lisp/files.el

[Stefan Monnier]

> As for proper processes, show me one that will completely avoid bugs
> during development, and I'm sure we will adopt it right on the spot.

Please no.  A bit of anarchy goes a long way towards enabling smoother
forward movement.

BTW, I still don't think there was anything wrong with my original code:
enabling the feature by default was done specifically so as to catch bugs
and see if people liked it.  Having it turned off now means that the
remaining bugs stay dormant.

Other than Randal who gets disproportionately annoyed by apparently random
events anyway, I haven't seen anybody consider the change as a step backward
(modulo bugs of course), so I strongly believe it should be enabled by
default at least for now to get more experience with it.  Randal can turn
the feature off since there's a variable for that.


        Stefan

Re: [BUG] CVS HEAD "find-file-confirm-inexistent-file" in lisp/files.el

[Juanma Barranquero]

On 7/10/07, Randal L. Schwartz <merlyn@stonehenge.com> wrote:

> I'm not willing to be responsible for *your* feelings.

My feelings where (and are) OK. I still think you were rude to Stefan, though.

             Juanma

Re: [BUG] CVS HEAD "find-file-confirm-inexistent-file" in lisp/files.el

[Juanma Barranquero]

On 7/11/07, Juanma Barranquero <lekktu@gmail.com> wrote:

> My feelings where (and are) OK. I still think you were rude to

s/wh/w/;

             Juanma

Re: [BUG] CVS HEAD "find-file-confirm-inexistent-file" in lisp/files.el

[Randal L. Schwartz]

>>>>> "Stefan" == Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> writes:

Stefan> Other than Randal who gets disproportionately annoyed by apparently
Stefan> random events anyway, I haven't seen anybody consider the change as a
Stefan> step backward (modulo bugs of course), so I strongly believe it should
Stefan> be enabled by default at least for now to get more experience with it.
Stefan> Randal can turn the feature off since there's a variable for that.

I'll register my disagreement (again), but defer to RMS's final ruling.

-- 
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Re: [BUG] CVS HEAD "find-file-confirm-inexistent-file" in lisp/files.el

[Stephen J. Turnbull]

Stefan Monnier writes:

 > default at least for now to get more experience with it.  Randal can turn
 > the feature off since there's a variable for that.

But *please* change "inexistent" to "nonexistent".  I don't care if
it's dictionary-correct or not, "inexistent" hurts my eyes and ears.

Re: [BUG] CVS HEAD "find-file-confirm-inexistent-file" in lisp/files.el

[Stefan Monnier]

>> default at least for now to get more experience with it.  Randal can turn
>> the feature off since there's a variable for that.

> But *please* change "inexistent" to "nonexistent".  I don't care if
> it's dictionary-correct or not, "inexistent" hurts my eyes and ears.

That was changed a few days ago.


        Stefan

Re: [BUG] CVS HEAD "find-file-confirm-inexistent-file" in lisp/files.el

[tomas]

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On Tue, Jul 10, 2007 at 06:29:19AM -0700, Randal L. Schwartz wrote:
> >>>>> "Juanma" == Juanma Barranquero <lekktu@gmail.com> writes:
> 
> Juanma> On 7/10/07, Randal L. Schwartz <merlyn@stonehenge.com> wrote:
> >> I'm not sure what you're objecting to at this point.  Maybe nothing.
> 
> Juanma> Same that Eli was objecting: the original rudeness [...]
[...]
> To be rude, it would have to be directed at the person.  I was pointing out a
> failed process and a failed result in the most direct manner possible [...]

FWIW, and at the danger of extending this thread, I'll add my (not very
relevant) data point. To me your first post came across as surprisingly rude,
especially knowing who you are and appreciating your writings and opinions
(otherwise I wouldn't care).

Regards
- -- tomás
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