From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Oliver Scholz Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Saving markup formats Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2007 12:05:30 +0200 Message-ID: References: <871wgi9jzb.fsf@jidanni.org> <87odjlwpu1.fsf@jurta.org> <87ir9r1m99.fsf@jurta.org> <87myz2i9tj.fsf@jurta.org> <87r6ocx0tk.fsf_-_@jurta.org> <87d4zuyvn6.fsf@gmx.de> <87fy4prmdf.fsf@jurta.org> <85sl8ngp94.fsf@lola.goethe.zz> NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: sea.gmane.org 1182333988 16290 80.91.229.12 (20 Jun 2007 10:06:28 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2007 10:06:28 +0000 (UTC) To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Wed Jun 20 12:06:25 2007 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.50) id 1I0x4t-0007GV-PM for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Wed, 20 Jun 2007 12:06:20 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1I0x4t-0004i0-2L for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Wed, 20 Jun 2007 06:06:19 -0400 Original-Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1I0x4p-0004hu-Dd for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 20 Jun 2007 06:06:15 -0400 Original-Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1I0x4o-0004hW-2E for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 20 Jun 2007 06:06:14 -0400 Original-Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1I0x4n-0004hO-OU for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 20 Jun 2007 06:06:13 -0400 Original-Received: from main.gmane.org ([80.91.229.2] helo=ciao.gmane.org) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS-1.0:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1I0x4n-0005tm-28 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 20 Jun 2007 06:06:13 -0400 Original-Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1I0x4S-00051q-8W for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 20 Jun 2007 12:05:53 +0200 Original-Received: from dslb-084-058-051-064.pools.arcor-ip.net ([84.58.51.64]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Wed, 20 Jun 2007 12:05:52 +0200 Original-Received: from alkibiades by dslb-084-058-051-064.pools.arcor-ip.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Wed, 20 Jun 2007 12:05:52 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ Original-Lines: 70 Original-X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: dslb-084-058-051-064.pools.arcor-ip.net User-Agent: Gnus/5.11 (Gnus v5.11) Emacs/22.1 (gnu/linux) X-detected-kernel: Linux 2.6, seldom 2.4 (older, 4) X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:73401 Archived-At: David Kastrup writes: > Oliver Scholz writes: > >> Richard Stallman writes: >> >>> This is a very bad thing; a _reliable_ word >>> processor---as opposed to an unreliable hack---shouldn't make any >>> changes to the logical structure of a document unless explicitly >>> ordered to do it. >>> >>> I reject that position (as well as the gratuitous insult tacked onto >>> it) >> >> It was not meant as an insult; by "unreliable hack" I was refering to >> my own first implementation. Of course, I was also referring to a >> general implementation strategy, still "insult" seems a bit strong. >> >> I'll try to refrain from further discussing this issue. I have to >> admit that from memory I can't think of any case where the approach >> you describe would fail with RTF---at least with the help of markup >> text in a buffer. My personal opinions are of no concern here. > > I find myself agreeing with you here: documents should preserve > structure. Word has so-called "style sheets" as a structuring method, > and it means that you can change the layout of a document consistently > by changing the style sheet. Ignoring the structure of the RTF and > saving something visually equivalent is breaking the document. While > it does not much harm to the documents of _naive_ Word users, it would > be horrible to load a complex file, change a few words, and have it > saved basically as a seemingly same-looking but unmaintainable mess. Yes, exactly. Another thing is that RTF is used as document exchange format: for instance, people send the exposé for their PhD thesis to friends and teachers and get it sent back with changes. If you did once take part in such a process, you may have noticed the inconsistent formatting (paragraphs or even sentences with different font hight and the like) in such documents? This often comes from one of the involved programmes having its own ideas about stylesheets and document structure, thus introducing slight chances at some spots when saving. The last step in such an editorial process is always fixing the formatting. Technically, though, you can preserve the nested structure in such cases by using a special markup text. This is also true for features like---just from the top of my head--- "track changes (revision marks)", i.e. changes made in a special mode for editorial revisions (I forgot the English name, the German name is "Änderungsmodus"). This feature is very popular among certain users in any collaborative editing process. Those "revision marks" can, and probably will be nested, if more than one editor other than the original author is involved. But again, you can---technically---address this by means of markup text in the buffer. What I, personally, think about this UI-wise doesn't really matter. Though, matters of taste aside, it will be an interesting task to make this UI secure against inadvertent and unnoticed changes by the user to the document structure (for instance by yanking text at the wrong spot) that could cause trouble. And by "trouble" I mean things like: the formatting of a 200p. master thesis going south half an hour before the final dead line. Sorry. I should really shut up now. I don't see the paradagm shift coming that I deem necessary. Oliver -- 2 Messidor an 215 de la Révolution Liberté, Egalité, Fraternité!