From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Drew Adams Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.bugs Subject: bug#23926: defcustom with STANDARD= gives confusing results Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2016 14:34:00 +0000 (UTC) Message-ID: References: <83vb0fgu83.fsf@gnu.org> <87k2gvhvql.fsf@users.sourceforge.net> <838txbgfgx.fsf@gnu.org> <837fcvgdho.fsf@gnu.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1468074927 13223 80.91.229.3 (9 Jul 2016 14:35:27 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2016 14:35:27 +0000 (UTC) Cc: 23926@debbugs.gnu.org To: Noam Postavsky , Eli Zaretskii Original-X-From: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sat Jul 09 16:35:14 2016 Return-path: Envelope-to: geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1bLtLd-0004OO-FJ for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Sat, 09 Jul 2016 16:35:13 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:51258 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1bLtLc-0001bq-KR for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Sat, 09 Jul 2016 10:35:12 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:52205) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1bLtLV-0001Zr-FU for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sat, 09 Jul 2016 10:35:06 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1bLtLS-0000Id-8e for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sat, 09 Jul 2016 10:35:05 -0400 Original-Received: from debbugs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.43]:60144) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1bLtLS-0000IZ-4l for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sat, 09 Jul 2016 10:35:02 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-debbugs by debbugs.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1bLtLR-0004ZM-Ul for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sat, 09 Jul 2016 10:35:01 -0400 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Resent-From: Drew Adams Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Sat, 09 Jul 2016 14:35:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 23926 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: Original-Received: via spool by 23926-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B23926.146807485417497 (code B ref 23926); Sat, 09 Jul 2016 14:35:01 +0000 Original-Received: (at 23926) by debbugs.gnu.org; 9 Jul 2016 14:34:14 +0000 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:44247 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1bLtKg-0004Y8-CL for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 09 Jul 2016 10:34:14 -0400 Original-Received: from userp1040.oracle.com ([156.151.31.81]:50438) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1bLtKf-0004Xw-JD for 23926@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 09 Jul 2016 10:34:13 -0400 Original-Received: from aserv0021.oracle.com (aserv0021.oracle.com [141.146.126.233]) by userp1040.oracle.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2/Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2) with ESMTP id u69EY5s2027457 (version=TLSv1 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Sat, 9 Jul 2016 14:34:05 GMT Original-Received: from userv0121.oracle.com (userv0121.oracle.com [156.151.31.72]) by aserv0021.oracle.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id u69EY3kE018370 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Sat, 9 Jul 2016 14:34:04 GMT Original-Received: from abhmp0013.oracle.com (abhmp0013.oracle.com [141.146.116.19]) by userv0121.oracle.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id u69EY1Zd028914; Sat, 9 Jul 2016 14:34:02 GMT In-Reply-To: X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.9 (901082) [OL 12.0.6744.5000 (x86)] X-Source-IP: aserv0021.oracle.com [141.146.126.233] X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Received-From: 208.118.235.43 X-BeenThere: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org List-Id: "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "bug-gnu-emacs" Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.bugs:120692 Archived-At: > Either really save the original value, or don't call it the "original > value". We can't use "default value" because that's already used for > the non-buffer local value, unfortunately. I think "standard value" > could work, though Drew said it was unclear. If it is what custom calls the "standard value", which is what you get when you `Reset to Standard Setting', then I don't think it is wrong to use that name here. But I think that `C-h v' - or at a minimum somewhere in the manual - should point out what is happening here: The value shown is the result of re-evaluating, in the current context, the original expression that was used to define the initial value. Each part of that sentence is important to understanding what this is. We should not just suppose that all of that is understood by a user, just by providing a label such as "standard value" (let alone a misleading label such as "original value"). It's OK to just provide a (reasonable) label, I guess, _if_ it is clearly defined somewhere in the doc. I really think that it would be good to show in `C-h v' (also), the original expression. That is available in Customize (good), by choosing `Show Saved Lisp Expression'. But if we are going to show, in `C-h v', what is currently called "original value" there, then we should (1) use a better name for it (e.g. "standard value") and (2) provide also the expression that it was re-evaluated from. As for how to show that expression: if small, show it inline; if large, show it on demand (e.g. clicking an expand button).