docbook export-special

docbook export-special

[Rustom Mody]

Thanks Carsten for 6.27.

Ive been playing around with docbook export and further processing and
was looking for something like export-special.
Now its come but not (yet) for the docbook exporter.

Any likelihood of it being supported there?
I would try to hack on the code myself but dont know enough docbook.
What's the equivalent in docbook to html's div?

Re: docbook export-special

[Baoqiu Cui]

Hi Rustom,

Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> writes:

> Thanks Carsten for 6.27.
>
> Ive been playing around with docbook export and further processing and
> was looking for something like export-special.
> Now its come but not (yet) for the docbook exporter.

What do you mean by export-special?  Do you mean exporting blocks that
look like the following lines?

#+begin_xyz
...
#+end_xyz

(where "xyz" can be some DocBook element).

Baoqiu

> Any likelihood of it being supported there?
> I would try to hack on the code myself but dont know enough docbook.
> What's the equivalent in docbook to html's div?
>
>
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>

Re: docbook export-special

[Rustom Mody]

Baoqiu wrote:
> What do you mean by export-special?

Well the latest org comes with a contributed org-special-blocks.el
[sorry I misnamed it]

> Do you mean exporting blocks that look like the following lines?

> #+begin_xyz
> ...
> #+end_xyz

Yes I guess that would be what I want.

Re: docbook export-special

[Baoqiu Cui]

Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> writes:

> Baoqiu wrote:
>> What do you mean by export-special?
>
> Well the latest org comes with a contributed org-special-blocks.el
> [sorry I misnamed it]
>
>> Do you mean exporting blocks that look like the following lines?
>
>> #+begin_xyz
>> ...
>> #+end_xyz
>
> Yes I guess that would be what I want.

Thanks for the confirmation, Rustom.  Carsten and I had several email
exchanges on this topic last month, and we decided to not support such
special blocks in DocBook exporter (see the following email).

Can you use #+BEGIN_DOCBOOK ... #+END_DOCBOOK instead to achieve what
you want?

Thanks,
Baoqiu

> From: Carsten Dominik <carsten.dominik@gmail.com>
> To: Baoqiu Cui <cbaoqiu@yahoo.com>
> Cc: Carsten Dominik <dominik@science.uva.nl>
> Subject: Re: [Orgmode] Re: markup in environments in latex export
> Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2009 21:24:27 +0200
> 
> Hi Baoqiu,
> 
> thank you very much for your input.  I largely agree with
> your assessment.
> 
> - Carsten
> 
> On Apr 27, 2009, at 7:37 PM, Baoqiu Cui wrote:
> 
> > Hi Carsten,
> >
> > I thought about this during the weekend, and it seemed to me that it  
> > is
> > better to let DocBook exporter ignore such arbitrary ``#+begin_xyz
> > ... #+end_xyz'' blocks.  There are several reasons:
> >
> >  1. LaTeX and DocBook use very different tag/element names.  Even if  
> > we
> >     can find equivalent elements in DocBook for ``xyz'', supporting
> >     such LaTeX specific markups can confuse users.
> >
> >  2. For many ``xyz''s that are supported in LaTeX, we may not be able
> >     to find equivalent elements in DocBook.  There is not similar  
> > thing
> >     in DocBook to do what <div class="xyz"> ... </div> does in HTML,
> >     AFAIK.
> >
> >  3. Supporting these blocks may open a big door for making exported
> >     DocBook XML files invalid.
> >
> > Personally I don't think it is even a good idea to support this LaTeX
> > feature in Org mode.  This feature may benefit a small number of
> > Org+LaTeX users, in some uncommon use cases, but in general it hurts
> > Org-mode's simplicity and cleanness.
> >
> > If I were Chris, I would not mind using real LaTeX syntax in
> >
> > \begin{xyz}
> > ...
> > \end{xyz}
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Baoqiu

Re: docbook export-special

[Rustom Mody]

Hello Baoqiu,

Rustom Mody <rustompmody <at> gmail.com> writes:

> Baoqiu wrote:
>> What do you mean by export-special?
>
> Well the latest org comes with a contributed org-special-blocks.el
> [sorry I misnamed it]
>
>> Do you mean exporting blocks that look like the following lines?
>
>> #+begin_xyz
>> ...
>> #+end_xyz
>
> Yes I guess that would be what I want.

> Thanks for the confirmation, Rustom.  Carsten and I had several email
> exchanges on this topic last month, and we decided to not support such
> special blocks in DocBook exporter (see the following email).

> Can you use #+BEGIN_DOCBOOK ... #+END_DOCBOOK instead to achieve what
> you want?

> Thanks,
> Baoqiu

Well something would be better than nothing :-)

My own view: latex and html are very different from docbook.
1. latex and html are specific presentation formats as against docbook
which is a general content format
2. Conversely no one wants to use docbook for itself but rather as a
stepping stone to something else -- typically pdf/html but in
principle any arbitrary 'end'-format.  This means that
docbook-exporter allowing for potential docbook errors is a smaller
problem than making impossible something which
a. can be/is already available in org
b. is supported in the 'end'-format
c. but is unavailable in the interim (docbook)

One such thing which may not be meaningful in latex and html but is a
lack in docbook is property exports.

Maybe if you or Carsten feel this should not go into org then
org-special-blocks is the place for it?

Re: Re: docbook export-special

[Carsten Dominik]

On May 28, 2009, at 9:47 AM, Rustom Mody wrote:

> Hello Baoqiu,
>
> Rustom Mody <rustompmody <at> gmail.com> writes:
>
>> Baoqiu wrote:
>>> What do you mean by export-special?
>>
>> Well the latest org comes with a contributed org-special-blocks.el
>> [sorry I misnamed it]
>>
>>> Do you mean exporting blocks that look like the following lines?
>>
>>> #+begin_xyz
>>> ...
>>> #+end_xyz
>>
>> Yes I guess that would be what I want.
>
>> Thanks for the confirmation, Rustom.  Carsten and I had several email
>> exchanges on this topic last month, and we decided to not support  
>> such
>> special blocks in DocBook exporter (see the following email).
>
>> Can you use #+BEGIN_DOCBOOK ... #+END_DOCBOOK instead to achieve what
>> you want?
>
>> Thanks,
>> Baoqiu
>
> Well something would be better than nothing :-)
>
> My own view: latex and html are very different from docbook.
> 1. latex and html are specific presentation formats as against docbook
> which is a general content format
> 2. Conversely no one wants to use docbook for itself but rather as a
> stepping stone to something else -- typically pdf/html but in
> principle any arbitrary 'end'-format.  This means that
> docbook-exporter allowing for potential docbook errors is a smaller
> problem than making impossible something which
> a. can be/is already available in org
> b. is supported in the 'end'-format
> c. but is unavailable in the interim (docbook)
>
> One such thing which may not be meaningful in latex and html but is a
> lack in docbook is property exports.

This, I think, was the reason why we could not see a good way to do  
this in docbook.

- Carsten

>
> Maybe if you or Carsten feel this should not go into org then
> org-special-blocks is the place for it?

I think you need to come up with a concrete implementation proposal.

- Carsten

>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Emacs-orgmode mailing list
> Remember: use `Reply All' to send replies to the list.
> Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org
> http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode

Re: Re: docbook export-special

[Rustom Mody]

On Thu, May 28, 2009 at 2:30 PM, Carsten Dominik
<carsten.dominik@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On May 28, 2009, at 9:47 AM, Rustom Mody wrote:
>
>> Hello Baoqiu,
>>
>> Rustom Mody <rustompmody <at> gmail.com> writes:
>>
>>> Baoqiu wrote:
>>> Can you use #+BEGIN_DOCBOOK ... #+END_DOCBOOK instead to achieve what
>>> you want?

Hell! I could swear that I tried this yesterday and the content disappeared!
Today its appearing in the xml output so thats probably enough.

I worked out the current mappings as i find them:
1 BEGIN_QUOTE  ->  <blockquote>
2 BEGIN_EXAMPLE  ->  <programlisting>
3 BEGIN_SRC lang -> <programlisting>
4 BEGIN_VERSE ->  <literallayout>
5 BEGIN_CENTER ->  something complicated

It would ne nice if something like this is there at least in the
org-docbook.el sources -- The manual is long enough and need not be
lengthened with the requirements of fringe users like
Yours truly :-)

Re: docbook export-special

[Baoqiu Cui]

Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> writes:

> On Thu, May 28, 2009 at 2:30 PM, Carsten Dominik
> <carsten.dominik@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> On May 28, 2009, at 9:47 AM, Rustom Mody wrote:
>>
>>> Hello Baoqiu,
>>>
>>> Rustom Mody <rustompmody <at> gmail.com> writes:
>>>
>>>> Baoqiu wrote:
>>>> Can you use #+BEGIN_DOCBOOK ... #+END_DOCBOOK instead to achieve what
>>>> you want?
>
> Hell! I could swear that I tried this yesterday and the content disappeared!
> Today its appearing in the xml output so thats probably enough.

I am very glad to know that this works for you.

> I worked out the current mappings as i find them:
> 1 BEGIN_QUOTE  ->  <blockquote>
> 2 BEGIN_EXAMPLE  ->  <programlisting>
> 3 BEGIN_SRC lang -> <programlisting>
> 4 BEGIN_VERSE ->  <literallayout>
> 5 BEGIN_CENTER ->  something complicated

Yes, the above mappings are what I use now in the exporter.
BEGIN_CENTER is handled using <informaltable>.

Have you tried something like the following?

#+DOCBOOK: <para><emphasis>One line</emphasis> written in DocBook</para>

#+BEGIN_DOCBOOK
<warning>
  <para>You should know what you are doing when quoting DocBook XML code
  in your Org file.  Invalid DocBook XML file may be generated by
  DocBook exporter if you are not careful!</para>
</warning>
#+END_DOCBOOK

Because we already have #+BEGIN_DOCBOOK ... #+END_DOCBOOK, there is no
point to support many other blocks like #+begin_warning
... #+end_warning (for the above example) etc., which can really pollute
Org-mode files.

> It would ne nice if something like this is there at least in the
> org-docbook.el sources -- The manual is long enough and need not be
> lengthened with the requirements of fringe users like
> Yours truly :-)

I can add a little more comments in org-docbook.el, but ideally we
should add important things to the manual if they are missing.  What
particular information do you want to see in the manual?

Baoqiu

Re: Re: docbook export-special

[Rustom Mody]

Baoqiu wrote:

> I can add a little more comments in org-docbook.el, but ideally we
> should add important things to the manual if they are missing.  What
> particular information do you want to see in the manual?

Hi Baoqiu.
One of the things that would help me is an explanation about links --
ie what the docbook exporter does to various types of links --
this-file and other-file, http:// file:// and more arcane protocol
selectors, links specifically into a org head-line and links that
search their target  etc etc

But as I said I think the org docs are long enough and I dont want to
ask for increases to its length for the benefit of fringe users like
myself.  Just a few lines in the code would be neat.

Of course if there is a commonality of this code with the
html-exporter it could as well go into the manual as it may be of use
to many more people

Rustom