From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Rustom Mody Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.help Subject: Re: Emacs history, and "Is Emacs difficult to learn?" Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2013 12:20:28 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: References: <87y58pplcp.fsf@VLAN-3434.student.uu.se> <87fvuwgsv0.fsf@VLAN-3434.student.uu.se> <075751cf-97a3-4d01-8fb1-4ffbc0180f3f@googlegroups.com> <878v0oxfdw.fsf@VLAN-3434.student.uu.se> <87a9l4rs76.fsf@VLAN-3434.student.uu.se> <39e6407d-c4fd-4dc1-b47f-a1ba4119c7cb@googlegroups.com> <87iozqzjjq.fsf@VLAN-3434.student.uu.se> NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1375298717 29413 80.91.229.3 (31 Jul 2013 19:25:17 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2013 19:25:17 +0000 (UTC) To: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Original-X-From: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Wed Jul 31 21:25:18 2013 Return-path: Envelope-to: geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1V4c1O-0005gU-02 for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Wed, 31 Jul 2013 21:25:18 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:50359 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1V4c1N-0006tV-AM for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Wed, 31 Jul 2013 15:25:17 -0400 X-Received: by 10.224.64.202 with SMTP id f10mr72811773qai.2.1375298429091; Wed, 31 Jul 2013 12:20:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.50.27.74 with SMTP id r10mr583601igg.10.1375298429052; Wed, 31 Jul 2013 12:20:29 -0700 (PDT) Original-Path: usenet.stanford.edu!f7no317691qan.0!news-out.google.com!ce7ni126qab.0!nntp.google.com!fx3no331606qab.0!postnews.google.com!glegroupsg2000goo.googlegroups.com!not-for-mail Original-Newsgroups: gnu.emacs.help In-Reply-To: <87iozqzjjq.fsf@VLAN-3434.student.uu.se> Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com Injection-Info: glegroupsg2000goo.googlegroups.com; posting-host=59.95.9.82; posting-account=mBpa7woAAAAGLEWUUKpmbxm-Quu5D8ui Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 59.95.9.82 User-Agent: G2/1.0 Injection-Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2013 19:20:29 +0000 Original-Xref: usenet.stanford.edu gnu.emacs.help:200338 X-BeenThere: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.help:92605 Archived-At: On Wednesday, July 31, 2013 11:41:21 PM UTC+5:30, Emanuel Berg wrote: > Again, I don't understand the "data" viewpoint. Data structures > and algorithms are the same, or very close, in my mind. Lots of > algorithms don't even work - and how could they? - if not for a > specific data structure. (Is this what you mean by "data"?) > SQL is respected. There is nothing wrong with VB, or VBA, as > *languages* (they are just BASIC offshots like all the others), > the problem are those disgusting IDEs, and especially the MS > Access database wizards. From a theory standpoint, they are the > opposite of MVC. From an emotional standpoint, they make me want > to puke. I don't know anything about Cobol. C is highly respect in > theory and practice, perhaps because of Unix, perhaps because it > is so cool. C++ is far from as stable/gentlemanly as C, but it > works, and is fast, with development, and with execution. It is > the language that the man on the street *still* is (by far) most > likely to associate with programming. Well we see differently then. C programmers think that C has data-structures though they dont think of an int or a char as a data structure. In fact the opposite is the case: The only data structures C has are int and char (and scalars). The rest are just storage structures. Haskell (and from a certain pov lisp) are languages that actually have data structures. Of course we use the same words and in different ways so heres a map: What I call a data structure you would probably call a discrete math structure What you call a data structure I call a pattern of memory layout in a von Neumann machine. The reason to make this distinction. Consider this C type: struct S { T x; struct S *a, *b; } Does this type represent a doubly linked list of Ts or a binary tree of Ts? The fact that it could be both (or something still different) implies that C does not have the tools for building genuine data structures, just for memory layouting. In 1991 I had collected up many such issues about how students brains are getting pickled by being brought up on C. [Here with some uptodating http://blog.languager.org/2013/02/c-in-education-and-software-engineering.html ] It used to be widely cited at one time including the C edition of Code Complete and also some C++ books.