From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Drew Adams Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.help Subject: RE: configurable means hard? [was: ... easier explanation how to setup gnus ...] Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2013 14:01:52 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: References: <5i61va9u7p.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> <8761v9fp6k.fsf@abbey.wistly.net> <1851107a-51f8-4514-a47d-0d0a6ce4fc4b@default> <87a9klcp0w.fsf@abbey.wistly.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1376427756 8947 80.91.229.3 (13 Aug 2013 21:02:36 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2013 21:02:36 +0000 (UTC) To: Carson Chittom , help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Original-X-From: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Tue Aug 13 23:02:37 2013 Return-path: Envelope-to: geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1V9Ljg-0005F4-LQ for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Tue, 13 Aug 2013 23:02:36 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:53495 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1V9Ljg-00024g-8t for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Tue, 13 Aug 2013 17:02:36 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:45164) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1V9LjH-0001ra-DT for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Tue, 13 Aug 2013 17:02:19 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1V9Lj8-0005dx-MJ for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Tue, 13 Aug 2013 17:02:11 -0400 Original-Received: from aserp1040.oracle.com ([141.146.126.69]:24554) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1V9Lj8-0005dm-FV for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Tue, 13 Aug 2013 17:02:02 -0400 Original-Received: from ucsinet21.oracle.com (ucsinet21.oracle.com [156.151.31.93]) by aserp1040.oracle.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.3.1/Sentrion-MTA-4.3.1) with ESMTP id r7DL1uaF013970 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Tue, 13 Aug 2013 21:01:59 GMT Original-Received: from userz7021.oracle.com (userz7021.oracle.com [156.151.31.85]) by ucsinet21.oracle.com (8.14.4+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id r7DL1rX7009722 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 13 Aug 2013 21:01:54 GMT Original-Received: from abhmt120.oracle.com (abhmt120.oracle.com [141.146.116.72]) by userz7021.oracle.com (8.14.4+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id r7DL1rtd009702; Tue, 13 Aug 2013 21:01:53 GMT In-Reply-To: <87a9klcp0w.fsf@abbey.wistly.net> X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.8 (707110) [OL 12.0.6668.5000 (x86)] X-Source-IP: ucsinet21.oracle.com [156.151.31.93] X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.4.x-2.6.x [generic] X-Received-From: 141.146.126.69 X-BeenThere: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.help:92860 Archived-At: > For the record, I do believe that Gnus is "worse" (for lack of a better > term) than Emacs as a whole. Sounds like it, in terms of being new-user friendly at least. > To maybe illustrate what I was getting at before, though, I conducted the > following thought experiment: >=20 > I pretended that I have never used Emacs, but I know that in > addition to editing text it can do many other things; and I am > seated at a machine on which it is installed. I am a reasonably > intelligent person, who has some experience of computers on some > platform or platforms. What questions occur to me just as I > browse through the menus? >=20 > File > - Why do I have five print options, and what's the difference? > - Why when I click "New Window Below" do I not get a new window? > > Edit > - What's a "face"? >=20 > Tools > - Why do I read Net News with Gnus and send mail with Gnus > but *read* mail with RMAIL? > - Why doesn't encryption work?[1] Consider suggesting specific improvements for menus: `M-x report-emacs-bug'. Seriously. > I don't mean to suggest these questions don't have answers--clearly they > do. But these are things I thought of in the 30 seconds it took me to > conduct my thought experiment, and I only actually tried to do two > things: open a new window (i.e., what I "thought" was a window was a fram= e > and vice versa) and use the menu to encrypt a file. I'm sure there are > more. Mouseover text can sometimes help describe what a menu item does. For `New Frame', for instance, it could say "Open a new frame (window-manager window)" instead of just "Open a new frame". But that probably won't help much for an item like `New Window Below'. I suppose it could add "(frame pane)" or "(pane)" after "window" in the help, but at some point this becomes too much. So yes, there is a certain amount of terminological difficulty that only help (e.g. `describe-key'), the doc (e.g. the manual), the tutorial, Emacs Wiki, or trial and error will teach. The terminology is a bit of a special case, however. Once past the basic-t= erminology hurdle and the how-do-I-access-help hurdle, things go more smoothly. > If I try to start from a blank slate (via emacs -Q) and then select Gnus > (Gnus being what the original question was about in the old thread), I > get nntp (news) open error: '>>>(error Unknown host "news")'. Continue? >=20 > That has the virtue of telling me what's wrong, but gives me essentially > no information on how to fix it. My advice is to file a (usability) bug: `M-x report-emacs-bug'. > Complexity itself is not a problem, per se; but the presentation of that > complexity can be, and usually is. I just think Emacs in general and > Gnus in particular needs some work in that regard. I think Emacs is pretty good in that regard, but it could be improved (and has been improved, in fits and starts over the years). I cannot speak to or for Gnus. My impression from hearsay accords with what you say. > But managing to understand that complexity is clearly not insurmountable > by somebody willing to put forth the effort: I'm posting this using > Gnus, and it's not like I'm some kind of uber-technical user. Heck, I > work in HR. >=20 > Anyway, that's my $0.02. Thanks for it. > [1] Incidentally, I appear to have discovered what might be a very minor > bug in 24.3, as well; when you select a file to encrypt but gpg is > not installed, you get a "permission denied" error, not a more > accurate "file not found" error. Please `M-x report-emacs-bug'. Seriously.