From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Drew Adams Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: RE: Have you all gone crazy? Was: On being web-friendly and why info must die Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2014 14:23:17 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: References: <87388bnzha.fsf@newcastle.ac.uk> <87k31mdbhe.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87tx0qiv45.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> <87h9wqd3i5.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87fvc8kdsp.fsf@gnu.org> <6e11cd85-09a0-4b7a-baa2-0c810bdebbce@default> <871tnsg0w7.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1419200641 10517 80.91.229.3 (21 Dec 2014 22:24:01 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2014 22:24:01 +0000 (UTC) To: Tom , emacs-devel@gnu.org Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sun Dec 21 23:23:54 2014 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Y2oul-0004lu-7k for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sun, 21 Dec 2014 23:23:51 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:38489 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Y2ouk-0006GV-9r for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sun, 21 Dec 2014 17:23:50 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:57908) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Y2ouO-0006E2-OD for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 21 Dec 2014 17:23:37 -0500 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Y2ouF-0007xR-W6 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 21 Dec 2014 17:23:28 -0500 Original-Received: from userp1040.oracle.com ([156.151.31.81]:19298) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Y2ouF-0007xH-PT for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 21 Dec 2014 17:23:19 -0500 Original-Received: from ucsinet21.oracle.com (ucsinet21.oracle.com [156.151.31.93]) by userp1040.oracle.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2/Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2) with ESMTP id sBLMNHsW017184 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Sun, 21 Dec 2014 22:23:17 GMT Original-Received: from userz7021.oracle.com (userz7021.oracle.com [156.151.31.85]) by ucsinet21.oracle.com (8.14.4+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id sBLMNGrq023900 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sun, 21 Dec 2014 22:23:16 GMT Original-Received: from abhmp0005.oracle.com (abhmp0005.oracle.com [141.146.116.11]) by userz7021.oracle.com (8.14.4+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id sBLMNFu6023892; Sun, 21 Dec 2014 22:23:16 GMT In-Reply-To: X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.8.2 (807160) [OL 12.0.6691.5000 (x86)] X-Source-IP: ucsinet21.oracle.com [156.151.31.93] X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.4.x-2.6.x [generic] X-Received-From: 156.151.31.81 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:180449 Archived-At: > > Well, one problem is that the manuals are really effective for > > learning a lot in one learning session. And that's a good deal > > for getting better with using Emacs. But it doesn't match > > modern attention spans. >=20 > Exactly. Users want to get the information fast and it is much > faster to search for something in google than trying to find > the relevant section of the manual. And why is that a problem? What is wrong with people using a web search engine like Google to get access to information about Emacs? (This is about the use of web search engines; it is not about the company Google and any political issues surrounding it.) And what do you suppose users actually find when they do that? ... The manual is great for looikng up again something which you know > where to find. E.g. what kind of text properties are there? > C-h i -> m elisp -> g -> text properties > But if you want to lookup something unfamiliar then google is much > more efficient. Something unfamiliar like what, for instance? It's not a rhetorical question. I'm sure there are such things that are hard to look up in the manuals, but an example might be illustrative. (And it might even help you file a bug report, to improve the manual's index.) In many cases, I've found that `i' in Info, supplemented by better completion (in the case of Icicles, being able to use multiple patterns - unordered, complement pattern matches, etc.) can be very helpful. As others have already argued, there is no substitute for a human-created index. (We can argue that more, if you are not convinced and you think that indexing is just a derivative of search - e.g. "full-text indexing".) But I won't argue that there is no substitute for something like Google. And I will add that I hope we are not aiming to replace it anytime soon. ;-) There is no reason to pose Google search either as a threat to Emacs or as something opposed to using Info within Emacs. There is no reason for Emacs users not to use a web search engine to get access to information about Emacs. > I wonder how many people read the manual from the beginning > to the end like a book.=20 Who cares? Why would that even be a consideration? But if you really don't know, the answer is: very, very, very very few - if any. > These days=20 Oh, please. "These days, these days,..." As if "these days" were something new. This gets tiresome at the end. There have *NEVER* been legions of people who "read the manual from the beginning to the end like a book." Few people have *EVER* read *ANY* reference book, especially a large one, from cover to cover. So what? There is nothing new about the fact that people often dip into reference books to remind themselves about particular information or to learn more about a particular topic. "These days..." Sheesh. As if this were a discovery. > (when average attention span is very short due to years > of filtering through huge volumes of information > on the net) I'd guess not many. Uh, "these days", Google does most of the filtering. I am not impressed by the "years of filtering through huge volumes of information" that today's users manage to carry out. On the contrary. The new phenomenon, if there really is one, is a relative *lack* of effort spent researching and filtering information. It is so simple to just ask others. With the result that Stack Exchange sites (for example) end up with zillions of butt-ugly, half-comprehensible, simpleton questions that other well-meaning users and moderators have to close, under the category of "TRY to find the f---ing answer yourself first; THEN ask for help here." Catering to THAT problem should not waste 3 seconds of our time here. The problem there is not our manuals or Google, and that problem is not one we should be losing sleep over. There are better improvements to be worked on.