From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Phil Sainty Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Do shorthands break basic tooling (tags, grep, =?UTF-8?Q?etc=29=3F=20=28was=20Re=3A=20Shorthands=20have=20landed=20on=20?= =?UTF-8?Q?master=29?= Date: Sat, 02 Oct 2021 20:44:55 +1300 Message-ID: References: <16338bdc2497fc51c6fb6d54ab370bfb@webmail.orcon.net.nz> <831r59kyhf.fsf@gnu.org> <834ka4k15m.fsf@gnu.org> <83y27gijmz.fsf@gnu.org> <8335pmgnjy.fsf@gnu.org> <604da2cb10ac61f2b8b89a02c89056be@webmail.orcon.net.nz> <83a6jtff87.fsf@gnu.org> <5ac7a31cf2959c31c262a3377c736a5a@webmail.orcon.net.nz> <83ilygew7p.fsf@gnu.org> <83fstjdiwl.fsf@gnu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="11084"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Orcon Webmail Cc: acm@muc.de, joaotavora@gmail.com, emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Eli Zaretskii Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Sat Oct 02 09:45:59 2021 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1mWZiZ-0002h1-4X for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sat, 02 Oct 2021 09:45:59 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:53250 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mWZiY-00044K-11 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sat, 02 Oct 2021 03:45:58 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:45898) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mWZhg-0003Nh-NQ for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 02 Oct 2021 03:45:04 -0400 Original-Received: from smtp-2.orcon.net.nz ([60.234.4.43]:39231) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mWZhf-000778-3A; Sat, 02 Oct 2021 03:45:04 -0400 Original-Received: from [10.253.37.70] (port=49049 helo=webmail.orcon.net.nz) by smtp-2.orcon.net.nz with esmtpa (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mWZhX-0004fq-RW; Sat, 02 Oct 2021 20:44:56 +1300 Original-Received: from ip-203-94-48-127.kinect.net.nz ([203.94.48.127]) via [10.253.37.253] by webmail.orcon.net.nz with HTTP (HTTP/1.1 POST); Sat, 02 Oct 2021 20:44:55 +1300 In-Reply-To: <83fstjdiwl.fsf@gnu.org> X-Sender: psainty@orcon.net.nz X-GeoIP: -- Received-SPF: pass client-ip=60.234.4.43; envelope-from=psainty@orcon.net.nz; helo=smtp-2.orcon.net.nz X-Spam_score_int: -6 X-Spam_score: -0.7 X-Spam_bar: / X-Spam_report: (-0.7 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_20=-0.001, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:276052 Archived-At: On 2021-10-02 19:45, Eli Zaretskii wrote: > There's a huge difference between breaking literal searches for > symbols by text-searching tools, and breaking basic Emacs commands > because the name the user sees and types is not known to Emacs. But shorthands does *both* of those things. The name the user sees is "s-foo". The name known to Emacs is "string-library-foo" (or whatever). The user types "C-h o s-foo RET" and Emacs says "no match". The huge difference is that with shorthands the above problem happens to every user, whether or not they're aware that symbols can have shorthands; whereas with the "nameless" approach it happens only to the users who have knowingly chosen to have it happen, as a willing trade-off to achieve something else. I'm genuinely confused that you're disapproving of a feature that people must opt into, on the basis of a problem which already happens with the approved feature that people can't opt out of. (Bearing in mind that the raison d'être for my idea was specifically to provide an *alternative to shorthands* for people who wished to opt into reading and writing short names, regardless of the 'problems', and to allow them to do so without affecting anyone other than themselves.) -Phil