From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail From: Drew Adams Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: RE: New behavior Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2018 09:29:53 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: References: < <83zhwljmzf.fsf@gnu.org> <8F4ACB78-C9A4-4F85-8E69-CF4A1FE3D597@scratch.space> <83o9d0jlwd.fsf@gnu.org> > <<837ejlifmy.fsf@gnu.org>> NNTP-Posting-Host: blaine.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Trace: blaine.gmane.org 1537115949 1810 195.159.176.226 (16 Sep 2018 16:39:09 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@blaine.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2018 16:39:09 +0000 (UTC) Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Eli Zaretskii , Van L Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sun Sep 16 18:39:05 2018 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by blaine.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1g1a4e-0000Ju-Vt for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sun, 16 Sep 2018 18:39:05 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:59639 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1g1a6l-0005Fb-Ky for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sun, 16 Sep 2018 12:41:15 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:46606) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1g1a5X-00057H-0Z for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 16 Sep 2018 12:40:02 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1g1Zvx-0007YK-8P for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 16 Sep 2018 12:30:07 -0400 Original-Received: from userp2120.oracle.com ([156.151.31.85]:56748) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1g1Zvr-0007G4-An; Sun, 16 Sep 2018 12:29:59 -0400 Original-Received: from pps.filterd (userp2120.oracle.com [127.0.0.1]) by userp2120.oracle.com (8.16.0.22/8.16.0.22) with SMTP id w8GGTBc2122501; Sun, 16 Sep 2018 16:29:54 GMT DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=oracle.com; h=mime-version : message-id : date : from : sender : to : cc : subject : references : in-reply-to : content-type : content-transfer-encoding; s=corp-2018-07-02; bh=0qlt3GVgg8VfhB8+ZyHhM5IjMCKv0RTUxjbfskfr3Es=; b=4lnzy2JVKg7vmuw4//d/GxpatN+agAEeCWYRzQiONALnr67VDorOEhjNDb1R3vEiPg2/ 1nRhGK9nZeMXw6suav3krFuY/ZFrrDuFvp5Cu+cYGVhR8ZYNIBrBcKZJl0afmAPoaque qhAShW+DUCxDTQflNtUxiXD9J6xt+0dRqd2jDAyFMdve2SeZm9gJUR/26WhoaAChIU6+ e6KpfGFt4gtSxZM6WzKSLqz+61PxX3kK4KhY31nWFy+plXb/h1g/qdGYYk3/9Du3Ydkr lfVgDpHQlXrcHNWbeE/bwOnZ0Z7INXdkFzWDpU97oJIEZS27tRefaLf3fdCllGim+2Mb 8A== Original-Received: from userv0022.oracle.com (userv0022.oracle.com [156.151.31.74]) by userp2120.oracle.com with ESMTP id 2mgtqqjv5s-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK); Sun, 16 Sep 2018 16:29:54 +0000 Original-Received: from userv0121.oracle.com (userv0121.oracle.com [156.151.31.72]) by userv0022.oracle.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id w8GGTs4D015107 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK); Sun, 16 Sep 2018 16:29:54 GMT Original-Received: from abhmp0001.oracle.com (abhmp0001.oracle.com [141.146.116.7]) by userv0121.oracle.com (8.14.4/8.13.8) with ESMTP id w8GGTr1F029747; Sun, 16 Sep 2018 16:29:54 GMT In-Reply-To: <<837ejlifmy.fsf@gnu.org>> X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.9.1 (1003210) [OL 16.0.4735.0 (x86)] X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=nai engine=5900 definitions=9017 signatures=668708 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 suspectscore=0 malwarescore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 spamscore=0 mlxscore=0 mlxlogscore=795 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.0.1-1807170000 definitions=main-1809160179 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 3.x [generic] X-Received-From: 156.151.31.85 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.21 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:229850 Archived-At: > > > "Use the source, Luke." > > > > The documentation should explain t and nil choice consequences as set f= or > '(Value Menu). >=20 > What documentation? >=20 > The Customize UI is for users who are not necessarily Lisp > programmers, so the Value Menu should show the human-readable > description of what each choice will do; it doesn't have to say > anything about the Lisp value which stands for that choice. "Doesn't have to"? Sure. But it is generally more helpful for users if the corresponding Lisp values are also cited in the doc string. (And it can also be helpful to point out the correspondence, when that might not be obvious.) We don't want to build a wall between end users and Lisp, and we don't want to pretend that such a wall exists. On the contrary, we want to encourage Emacs users to learn and take advantage of Lisp with Emacs. Emacs Lisp is the most important "feature" that Emacs has to offer. The kernel of truth in what you say is that we also don't want to scare non-Lisp users by giving them the impression that they _need_ to know or worry about the Lisp values of user options. That users should not, and generally do not, need to know Lisp to customize a user option is not a reason that the doc for that option should not mention the Lisp values. It's true that there is no obligation for the doc to mention the Lisp values, but it generally helps users to do so - so it typically _should_.