From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Drew Adams Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: RE: A proposal for removing obsolete packages Date: Sat, 23 Jan 2016 14:03:36 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: References: <83twmkkv16.fsf@gnu.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1453586655 12764 80.91.229.3 (23 Jan 2016 22:04:15 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 23 Jan 2016 22:04:15 +0000 (UTC) Cc: johnw@gnu.org, monnier@iro.umontreal.ca, emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Andrew Hyatt , Richard Stallman Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sat Jan 23 23:04:03 2016 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1aN6Hr-0000WZ-0O for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sat, 23 Jan 2016 23:04:03 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:58653 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1aN6Hm-0001zl-W1 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sat, 23 Jan 2016 17:03:59 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:54581) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1aN6HW-0001za-KU for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 23 Jan 2016 17:03:43 -0500 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1aN6HT-0006ME-DW for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 23 Jan 2016 17:03:42 -0500 Original-Received: from aserp1040.oracle.com ([141.146.126.69]:27923) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1aN6HT-0006M9-75; Sat, 23 Jan 2016 17:03:39 -0500 Original-Received: from aserv0022.oracle.com (aserv0022.oracle.com [141.146.126.234]) by aserp1040.oracle.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2/Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2) with ESMTP id u0NM3aoS025825 (version=TLSv1 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 23 Jan 2016 22:03:38 GMT Original-Received: from aserv0121.oracle.com (aserv0121.oracle.com [141.146.126.235]) by aserv0022.oracle.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id u0NM3ZBc005687 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 23 Jan 2016 22:03:35 GMT Original-Received: from abhmp0010.oracle.com (abhmp0010.oracle.com [141.146.116.16]) by aserv0121.oracle.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id u0NM3Z4v012222; Sat, 23 Jan 2016 22:03:35 GMT In-Reply-To: X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.9 (901082) [OL 12.0.6691.5000 (x86)] X-Source-IP: aserv0022.oracle.com [141.146.126.234] X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.4.x-2.6.x [generic] X-Received-From: 141.146.126.69 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:198664 Archived-At: > Here are the packages that are eligible for deletion in Emacs 25 (all > obsolete since before Emacs 24): >=20 > options FWIW, wrt `options.el': 1. Command `list-options' lists all user options, together with their current values and their documentation. That still seems useful to me. If it is not, we should tell users what is its specific replacement. I see only this in the doc string of `list-options': "It is now better to use Customize instead." ("instead" is redundant here, BTW.) And this message is shown at the top of the `list-options' output: "This facility is obsolete; we recommend using M-x customize instead." Really? Just how do you "use Customize" to get a listing such as `list-options' provides? How do you use `M-x customize' to get such a listing? I don't think you can get such a listing. Certainly not with just `M-x customize'. And `customize-apropos .*' doesn't give you the same thing (no complete doc strings, and not just options, etc.). If I'm right that there is no real substitute provided by Customize then I think that command `list-options' (renamed, if necessary) should be kept. It could be moved to one of the `cus*.el' files, if you really plan to toss `options.el'. 2. Similarly, I think that command `edit-options' is still useful. And yes, I'm familiar with Customize, and I use it often. But I don't see that it replaces the specific behavior offered by `options.el'. If I'm right about `edit-options' not having a replacement, please consider keeping it too, possibly moving it to one of the `cus*.el' files. 3. It is true that `edit-options' does not DTRT when an option has a `:set' function etc. It simply uses `set' to set the new value. (This is true also of command `set-variable', BTW.) To improve it, we could make it use a Customize function such as `customize-set-variable', which does DTRT. 4. I might have said the above when `options.el' was considered for deprecation. Dunno. In any case, I've said it now - I don't see why this library needs to be deprecated, much less removed. It represents zero maintenance burden, unless I'm missing something. Sure, we want to encourage users to use Customize for most of their user-option needs. But I don't see the specific features offered by `options.el' being provided by Customize. And I think they are useful features. For all the user complaints we hear about Customize (and I generally defend Customize, though I agree that the UI leaves something to be desired), I do not recall a single complaint about the commands `list-options' and `edit-options'. The listing is clear and easy to use. Given #3, above, we could decide to keep only `list-options', but I think a better approach would be to keep both, possibly improving `edit-options' to take `:set' etc. into account. Another alternative would be for the editing keys to just pop to a relevant Customize buffer for the given option. `options.el' provides a useful view of the user options. I think that such a view is missing with Customize.