From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.ciao.gmane.io!not-for-mail From: xristos Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: GNU Emacs raison d'etre Date: Sun, 24 May 2020 12:52:04 -0400 Message-ID: References: <871rnnvmdx.fsf@red-bean.com> <87pnb7sira.fsf@red-bean.com> <06bcddd4-6991-e4f7-e944-93de14af263d@yandex.ru> <87h7wjsd8o.fsf@red-bean.com> <20897f01-122d-7f91-eac2-70f5ad75796f@yandex.ru> <87d077qfmm.fsf@red-bean.com> <87y2pmw9ld.fsf@red-bean.com> <6e4190a4-765d-6abd-1ae2-8c1432c29d65@yandex.ru> <20200521080349.GC26656@tuxteam.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="ciao.gmane.io:159.69.161.202"; logging-data="70093"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: tomas@tuxteam.de, emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Arthur Miller Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Sun May 24 18:52:47 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1jctrj-000I8a-7q for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sun, 24 May 2020 18:52:47 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:35486 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jctri-0007mr-A9 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sun, 24 May 2020 12:52:46 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:54296) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jctrD-000714-Ax for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 24 May 2020 12:52:15 -0400 Original-Received: from mx.sdf.org ([205.166.94.20]:63573) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jctrB-0007mb-Lx for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 24 May 2020 12:52:14 -0400 Original-Received: from melchior.lan (ma.sdf.org [205.166.94.33]) (authenticated (0 bits)) by mx.sdf.org (8.15.2/8.14.5) with ESMTPSA id 04OGq5d2011046 (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256 bits) verified NO); Sun, 24 May 2020 16:52:06 GMT In-Reply-To: (Arthur Miller's message of "Sun, 24 May 2020 15:45:08 +0200") Received-SPF: pass client-ip=205.166.94.20; envelope-from=xristos@sdf.org; helo=mx.sdf.org X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: First seen = 2020/05/24 12:52:07 X-ACL-Warn: Detected OS = ??? X-Spam_score_int: -18 X-Spam_score: -1.9 X-Spam_bar: - X-Spam_report: (-1.9 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001 autolearn=_AUTOLEARN X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:251327 Archived-At: On Sun, 24 May 2020 15:45:08 +0200, Arthur Miller wrote: > Yes, indeed, you are onto something here. It would be nice if there > were different smaller tutorials, for example one for text, one for file > managing, one for email etc. I guess everybody could agree with that, > and probably only reason why it didn't happened yet is because somebody > actually have to produce those, which is not as trivial as it might > sound, I guess. There are some floating resources, tutorial-like blog > posts, some YT content etc. I don't know if Emacs could link to those > as extra resources etc. It is important to stress the need for interactivity. Emacs is an interactive environment and the existing tutorial -aptly- acknowledges that by also being interactive. Emacs can link to hundreds of additional resources that don't even come close to having the same impact a more extensive, _interactive_ tutorial would. > > That should include familiarization with all introspective commands, > > configuration and customization, how buffers and processes work, and a > > practical introduction to Emacs Lisp, including showing IELM and what one > > can do inside it (e.g. Set working buffer). > Yeah, a tutorial on help, a tutorial och semantic navigation, a tutorial > on remote editing, etc. A set of more focused shorter tutorials. But as > said I am affraid that the problem is that somebody has to put > voluntarily work into making this, which might take substantial time. I am bringing this up here to first determine if what I proposed resonates with others and build some form of consensus. The necessary time & effort investment can then be more easily justified. Let me finish by saying that I've been using & programming Emacs daily for more than a decade, but most of my observations are based on what I see others come to #emacs on Freenode to ask questions about. It is my understanding that very few newcomers read the -extensive- Emacs manuals and even if they do, a lot of them still lack a basic understanding of the fundamental models (buffers and processes) that Emacs is built on. And these are the areas that I would suggest be included first (rather than specialized areas like semantic navigation, remote editing which can be added later). It may be helpful to think of the tutorial as a programmable mode that can be extended by additional libraries. That way, a library author can provide a mini-tutorial for his library that plugs into Emacs's. But let me stress that these are secondary considerations and that plenty of low-hanging fruit can be plucked by simply extending the existing tutorial to include material that covers the fundamental models of Emacs and provides a simple interactive introduction to Emacs Lisp and IELM.